Sandhurst in the Great War

[FrancesH]

I should be very glad to hear from anyone with knowledge about what it was to attend Sandhurst during the Great War. I am particularly interested if anyone can tell me about bullying and/or the problems/attitudes someone from a background considered to be outside the norm might face. I am researching a young man from Lytham, Lancashire, an architectural trainee before the war, who began 'drinking brandy before breakfast' at Sandhurst and subsequently became an alcoholic. I suspect that this may have been the result of bullying, which was mentioned very briefly in passing by the two contemporary accounts I have found written by officer cadets describing their training. I know that snobbish attitudes continued to prevail in many regiments right up to the Second World War on issues such as the way someone tied his shoes or parted his hair, let alone having a northern accent! Any thoughts, anyone?

[David Filsell]

Not least Montgomery was accused of bullying and disciplined for it. No doubt there was the general run of picking on people who did not/would not fit in. Having researched Sandhurst, and the last class to 'qualify' before the Great War and their subsequent service/death, I found no reference to bullying. That said keep in mind the classes from which most of the students came - sons of military officers, the gentry, sons of clergymen; effectively a self selecting list (which was also a reason why some selected a commission via the militia. No doubt some did not fit in for financial, background or temperamental reasons The non-commissioned officers doubtless ran a very harsh regime - almost certainly harder than now, and it's still a tough introduction to army life as a grown-up. I suspect that the bullying was in general little worse than that in the public schools from which most candidates came - and that varied from mild to extreme and from school to school. Whether or not any adverse treatment made him an alcoholic it is imposwsible to judge. I believe the present view is that some people have a propensity for alcoholism, drug taking, gambling even fornicating (sex addiction) and opportunity. Certainly high alcohol intake amongst officers in theline features regularly into accounts, but... Perhaps he just liked a drink a bit too much!

[FrancesH]

Thank you for your comments, David. I should have clarified my information a little more. The comment about the brandy before breakfast was made by his family when the young man in question was being admitted to an infirmary for 'drying out in the statement they gave to the medical authorities describing his life. In the context in which they made it, the family clearly thought that Sandhurst had seen the start of his drinking problems, although they did not say why they thought this, which is why I wondered about bullying. This individual had not attended a public school or indeed a boarding establishment, had never lived away from home. He also did not come from the background you describe -- his father was a 'retired carpet manufacturer'.He may therefore simply have found the situation much more challenging than most cadets would, rather than having any specifically unkind treatment. Of course, he may simply have had an addictive personality. Even so, when exploring a life, it is reasonable to look for triggers which may have stimulated someone's addiction. Whether I can identify them for sure is another matter!

[SiegeGunner]

Much would depend, I suspect, on the character of the young man concerned. If his father was already retired, he was presumably a late addition to the family, or perhaps the child of a late or second marriage. A 'carpet manufacturer' would likely be at least comfortably off, and the lad must have received a good education in order to become an architectural trainee and then to qualify for entrance to Sandhurst. Do you know if he had any prior military experience, perhaps as a cadet? I gain the impression of a bright and well brought-up young man who may not have been accustomed to the 'rough and tumble' of team sports and group activities. Do you have a full-length photo of him? Was he physically robust? Without experiencing any personal bullying, he might well have found the training very demanding, but, if he was a determined young man, he may have pushed himself to keep up rather than let himself and his family down. I would be a little wary about 'drinking brandy before breakfast', as I doubt whether the accommodation at Sandhurst was particularly warm or comfortable, and he may have only been taking a nip from a flask to warm his bones in the morning.

How far did he get in his military career before (presumably) breaking down in some way and needing treatment for alcoholism? Also, do you have any records of his treatment? It was evidently his family that presented him to the infirmary, and if they were not accustomed to men drinking regularly and overdoing it sometimes, as soldiers are often wont to do, they might well have over-estimated his addiction (by the standards of the day).

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I should be very glad to hear from anyone with knowledge about what it was to attend Sandhurst during the Great War. I am particularly interested if anyone can tell me about bullying and/or the problems/attitudes someone from a background considered to be outside the norm might face. I am researching a young man from Lytham, Lancashire, an architectural trainee before the war, who began 'drinking brandy before breakfast' at Sandhurst and subsequently became an alcoholic. I suspect that this may have been the result of bullying, which was mentioned very briefly in passing by the two contemporary accounts I have found written by officer cadets describing their training. I know that snobbish attitudes continued to prevail in many regiments right up to the Second World War on issues such as the way someone tied his shoes or parted his hair, let alone having a northern accent! Any thoughts, anyone?

Was this a full year's course or a short one? I am sure others will know more about this, but I have just received the record summary of one of the men I am researching on Eastbourne's Ascham St Vincent's Memorial Arch, who was born in June 1898 so attended Sandhurst straight from school at 18 (I think - I haven't found his school and the record doesn't tell me, disappointingly) from late April to late October 1916 before gaining a commission. All the nine young men on the same page, clearly a small fraction of the whole group, were on this six-month course and their fathers' occupations ranged from 'coal merchant' via 'doctor' and 'civil engineer' to 'Earl of Kimberley'. It seems unlikely that a six-month course would be the cause, by itself, of such a problem, though it might well be a tough experience and we've all heard about snobbery towards 'temporary gentlemen.'

Liz

[FrancesH]

To answer some of the queries raised (and thank you both for your interest!): his father retired through illness in his 30s and Norman (my subject) was one of three brothers all very close in age born when their father was in his 20s. He attended Seafield Preparatory School in Crosby and then went to Manchester Grammar for two years. He was apprenticed to an architect for four years and had just begun his first year studying architecture at Manchester Technical College in 1914. The course which he attended at Sandhurst lasted from 1 January 1915 to 31 May 1915. I am researching ten cadets who attended this course who all appear in the attached photograph: Norman can be seen on the extreme right, standing. He was 5 ft 6 in, not exceptionally small for the era. He joined the Loyal North Lancashires and went out to France in November 1915. Unfortunately eight days later he had an epileptic fit, fell and dislocated his shoulder, and spent the rest of the war and indeed the 1920s in and out of medical establishments trying to get treatment first for his shoulder and then for his alcoholism. His service record states that at joining up he had no history of epilepsy and his family confirmed this in the statement they made to the infirmary in 1922 referred to in my first post. They stated clearly that in their view the alcohol problem was not due to Norman feeling depressed about developing epilepsy, but correctly commented that the two things were each making the other worse. Their point about drinking at Sandhurst was that they felt he had developed a drinking problem before the epilepsy first manifested in France. As I am sure readers will be aware, epilepsy can be triggered by bright lights, very loud noises, high stress and lack of sleep -- a pretty accurate description of the Western Front.

[David Filsell]

Certainly an interesting, and sad, set of circumstances but it seems harsh to judge youthful drinking at Sandhurst on a short course as a key factor in his downfall I feel.

[SiegeGunner]

Thanks for the additional information, Frances. Norman was evidently more robust than I thought to give him credit for. I'm not sure that he would have got through even a short course at Sandhurst if he had a 'drinking problem', though, and it might perhaps be more accurate to say that he developed a 'drinking habit' while there. That presupposes, of course, that he was not already a drinker during his time as an architectural trainee/student. Maybe, like many young men who grew up in a hurry in those times, he switched from drinking beer to drinking spirits and was unable to handle it. If his shoulder injury remained unresolved for some considerable time, he might perhaps have upped his intake to try and dull the pain. Being unable to serve his country, having trained to do so, and while his contemporaries were risking their lives, must also have played on his mind to some extent.

Certainly a sad story, and I look forward to hearing the final instalment, when you tell us what eventually became of him.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

If he had only eight days in France before the epilepsy manifested itself and he was repatriated, had he even reached the front line or anywhere with flashing lights, bangs etc? .I don't think a five-month course at Sandhurst could be blamed for his problem either, but it's really impossible to know, unless someone comes up with strong evidence. There would be harder physical exercise there than he might have been used to, I've no idea if that can bring out an inherent weakness. A specialist opinion might be worth seeking.

The parents' view otherwise sounds like a desperate attempt (entirely understandable) to find something to blame for their son's condition, which might be unrelated to war training or service.

Liz

[FrancesH]

Norman did indeed reach the front line, and I apologise for not making myself clear.What I meant was that he had eight days in trenches before the epileptic fit. He did not take part in an attack or any significant action, although clearly there would have been shells, etc, he might have been involved in night-time work in No Man's Land, etc.

I think the comment about harder physical exercise could well be true. Manchester GS has no record of him being a member of any sports teams during his time there, which is in sharp contrast to my other nine subjects. He did play golf, however, which perhaps explains his membership of the hockey team! I also agree that his parents could well have been desperate to find some explanation for what happened, and I think it practically certain that he felt deeply ashamed of not 'doing his bit.

As for the end of the story, after a long series of 'dryings out' punctuated by periods at home where he would drink his army discharge money as soon as it arrived and be 'almost unbearable' at home, he walked in front of a car going at 10 mph in the blackout in 1940, fell and hit his head, refused all assistance or medical help, walked home, and died eight days later, when he was found to have fractured his skull.

Thank you also for the suggestion about moving from beer to spirits, sounds very possible. I have yet to explore his time as an architectural apprentice in depth, although I know whom he worked for and that the practice specialised, interestingly, in building and restoring theatres. Life in theatre land might well, one feels, involve a drink or two!

[8055Bell]

Frances,

Manchester Grammar was possibly more upmarket than you have assumed. Numerous old boys joined the 20th Royal Fusiliers - Public School Battalion in early Sept 1914 and many were commissioned. No doubt Sandhurst was very different, but so many other MGS boys fitted in with the life as an Officer, other explanations for Norman's problems may be more relevant. Saying all of that, two architects who qualified at M/Chr Tech College were Cpl and Sgt respectively, albeit in the 17th Manchesters - 2nd City Clerks & Warehousemen Bttn.

Good luck

Tim

[FrancesH]

Hi Tim -- I hasten to reassure you and any bristling MGS alumni that I never thought it was not upmarket! My point was that it was not a boarding school. Having attended a boarding school myself, I can assure you that the 24-hour immersion with no periods of home life creates a very different atmosphere and one where, in the early 20th century, the role of prefects at best and bullies at worst was far more powerful. My point was that Norman, unlike my other nine subjects, had not had such an experience -- he had lived at home with his family for his entire life except whilst travelling with his architectural supervisor on site visits. By the way I'm very interested to hear that many MGS boys joined the Royal Fusiliers -- this was also Norman's destination until he got into Sandhurst in mid-January, when the RF released him. There must have been some special link between MGS and the RF.

[SiegeGunner]

Having also attended a boarding school (for 8 years), the sense I am getting is that the main difference between Norman and his fellows was not so much that he did not experience the pressure-cooker of boarding life, but that he did not experience the liberation from daily exposure to the influence, views and domestic regime of his parents, which boarders enjoy (at a price, and once they get used to it).

The fact that he played golf is interesting, as it suggests to me that he perhaps spent more of his 'leisure time' in the company (or at least the domain) of older men than his contemporaries did. Do you know anything about his time in the architects' office? Depending on the personalities of the principals and the atmosphere/regime in the office, that might have been either a liberating time for Norman or a continuation of his previous experience.

What do you know of his brothers? Did they also serve in the war, and if so, how did they fare?

The fact that Norman returned to his parents' home when his health broke down and he was discharged from the army, that they evidently organised his treatment and offered explanations of the need for it, and that he apparently spent the rest of his life under their roof leads me to think that it is less likely that he was bullied by his peers than that he was dominated and pressured by his parents.

Mick

[FrancesH]

Hi Mick

You raise some interesting points. One thing which might also contribute to the picture you suggest is that Norman was born in 1893, thus he was older than all the others of my group of ten, and probably than the others on their course. He would also see himself perhaps very much as an adult, having been out in the working world (and playing golf, no doubt with older men).

As I said above, I have yet to explore his time in the architect's office in detail, but it seems likely that he would have come to Sandhurst with a different perspective from the others who had come directly from school -- he might feel that he would be 'more of an adult' than them, but, as you suggest, they would all be accustomed to the experience of independence. I didn't particularly enjoy my time at boarding school (8 years for me too) but I would agree that it made me more independent of my parents and self-reliant. I remember being startled to discover how many of my university contemporaries were terrified at the thought of getting themselves across London on the Tube!

Both brothers (older than him) joined up, one, a medical student, as a surgeon probationer in the Navy, the other as a 2nd Lt in the South Lancs reserve. Both survived the war -- the medical one stayed in the navy for a while and the other became a lawyer. So, in his own family Norman would probably have felt very much like a 'failure' who hadn't done his bit. He joined up on 3 September 1914, by the way, so was as enthusiastic as anyone else, I would imagine.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

All this about boarding schools versus day schools is conjecture, in my opinion - i could tell you about a number of people who went to day schools, left home at 18 and have led adventurous lives, versus ex-boarding school pupils who spent the rest of their lives looking for security. It all depends on the person, the school, the family, the circumstances....The original question was whether Sandhurst fostered drink problems, which hasn't exactly been answered, but seems unlikely to have done to this extent, or there would have been more problems than there were.

I have researched hundreds of men who fought in the war, with a bias towards ones who died, admittedly. Only a few cracked up in any way; one I recall ending up in Craiglockhart who had not had an easy childhood and had won an award as a boy for rescuing someone who was drowning. Participating in his first battle, a major action on the Somme, left him shell-shocked and the problems never went away, though he led an outwardly normal sort of life.

I do wonder whether you can possibly get at the reasons for this but admire the detail you are trying to go into.

Liz

[8055Bell]

Frances,

There's a good article here about the formation of the Manchester Grammar, Public Schools Battalion in the Royal Fusils. - London Regiment. Pg 165-168

http://www.worldwar1schoolarchives.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ULULA_1914_10.pdf

It looks like Norman enlisted with his school friends at the first opportunity. It's interesting the Manchester (City) Battalions 16-19th were being formed at the same time. THe Grammar men must have seen themselves different to the Clerks & Warehouseman who in the Pals, who were also middle class and well educated. Interesting...

Tim

[FrancesH]

Tim, many thanks! What a wonderful journal 'Ulula' was as well, full of period advertisements. The account of the formation of this battalion fits exactly with the dates on Norman's joining-up papers -- so yes, he went back to school and down to Leatherhead with his schoolfriends. What a vivid picture of their departure from Manchester. The point you make about the Pals battalions is interesting too -- I suppose though this Battalion was the MGS version of a Pals Battalion?

Presumably Norman then decided the chance of a free Sandhurst training (fees abolished for the duration of wartime) and the possibility of a long-term career in the army was too good to miss, despite being separated from his schoolfriends.

[David Filsell]

Oh you boarding school boys with your endless reminiscing, your jam roly poly and your spotted dicks.

[FrancesH]

Not being a boy I have absolutely no idea what you could possibly mean about spotted dicks (although we did occasionally have syrup pudding)!

[8055Bell]

Frances,

There are some pics in the Newspaper Archive of the PBS leaving Manch.

Do you know who the Architect was that he had been apprenticed too? Details of Manch Tech Coll War Memorial here http://www.carlscam.com/manchester/umist.htm

Robert Sturgeon was another MGS old boy. Which Norman are we dealing with?

T

[David Filsell]

And crumble?

With custard?

[FrancesH]

Hi Tim

This is Norman Kelley (not altogether sure why I didn't put his surname to start with). He was born a Yorkshireman in Heckmondwike but the family moved to Lytham in Lancashire when his father retired with heart trouble and Lytham remained his home for the rest of his life.

He was apprenticed to Albert Winstanley. As I said earlier, I haven't explored this period of Norman's life in detail yet, but Winstanley worked on about 20 different theatres all over the north of England in the four years Norman was with him.

As for you David, I will only say that even institutional crumble is ruined by the revolting addition of custard, as any fule kno (and as a boarding school boy, you will kno that quote!)

Sorry Tim I forgot to say -- which newspaper archive? I should like to see the pictures you mention.

[David Filsell]

Agreed. Custard is one of the devil's inventions. Any one ever tried peach or apricot crumble?

[8055Bell]

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

I've found Norman on 2 Rolls, but it doesn't add anything Here;s 1.https://archive.org/stream/LancashireBiographiesRollsOfHonour/75.LancashireBiographiesRollsOfHonour#page/n552/mode/1up

[FrancesH]

Thank you for these two links. I look forward to checking up the photos of the departure from Manchester.

I note that the Roll of Honour reference cites Norman as a Private in the PBS, Royal Fusiliers -- evidently missed his move to Sandhurst and the Loyal North Lancs.