1907 Bayonet markings help.

[msdt]

That's heroic JMB!!!

Don't think the Remington 1913's would count - they all have clearance holes and the earliest date is probably 12 15 anyway.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Tony

[sawdoc34]

Msdt,

Am I missing something here?

Thought Remmington & Winchester P1913s were made without clearance holes & only Vickers made examples had holes.

Anyone know if any of the transitional M1917s (with no hole) made from the leftover P1913s had the 1913 cancelled out on the ricasso or just marked 1917?

Cheers,

Aleck

[msdt]

No Aleck, you aren't!!! I've just jumped out of bed realising what I had written - of course NO Remington or Winchester 1913's had clearance holes!

The transitional 1917's with no clearance hole (from October 1917 production I believe) are, apart from the lack of hole, as per standard 1917's and are thus marked 1917. (These could represent 1913 production bayonets finished but as yet unmarked.)

The finished 1913's marked 1913 and dated with month and year just have the British inspectors marks crossed out and US stamped by the cross hatching. The 1913 mark is not crossed out, or at least I've never seen such an example.

Must have been more tired than I thought!

Cheers,

Tony

[sawdoc34]

Tony,

I must be tired myself as totally forgot about the 1913s with cancelled out brit inspectors marks & US marked (must check if they had holes or not).

Starting on these bloody german ersatz along with the turks seem to be pushing all my brit/colonial Iinfo out

Cheers,

Aleck

[trajan]

6. Any advice/comments/changes etc. before I commit pen to paper ?????

I think you have covered everything there - although as Tony later pointed out, "NO Remington or Winchester 1913's had clearance holes!" - but let us know if you find one!

You will find it a fairly tedious business as you go along, but then when you see patterns emerge (or not, as the case might be!), you'll get than nice (and even smug!) sense of self-achievement! One problem is knowing when to stop... I got to 430 Ersatz with unit markings before I decided to stop and see what (if any) patterns emerged - and since then I have gathered the information for another 20 or so, although I don't think adding these will change the overall analysis that much... And, of course, I am in any case only part way through examining the Ersatz data I already have!

TTFN,

Trajan

[trajan]

Am I missing something here?

Thought Remmington & Winchester P1913s were made without clearance holes & only Vickers made examples had holes.

Anyone know if any of the transitional M1917s (with no hole) made from the leftover P1913s had the 1913 cancelled out on the ricasso or just marked 1917?

No Aleck, you aren't!!! I've just jumped out of bed realising what I had written - of course NO Remington or Winchester 1913's had clearance holes!

The transitional 1917's with no clearance hole (from October 1917 production I believe) are, apart from the lack of hole, as per standard 1917's and are thus marked 1917. (These could represent 1913 production bayonets finished but as yet unmarked.)

The finished 1913's marked 1913 and dated with month and year just have the British inspectors marks crossed out and US stamped by the cross hatching. The 1913 mark is not crossed out, or at least I've never seen such an example.

Must have been more tired than I thought!

I must be tired myself as totally forgot about the 1913s with cancelled out brit inspectors marks & US marked (must check if they had holes or not).

Starting on these bloody german ersatz along with the turks seem to be pushing all my brit/colonial Iinfo out

Well, got that sorted out then!

Hey, it happens - and it was a Monday: but just be grateful that one of the P.1907/1913/M.1917 fanatics didn't catch you out before your brain-clicking-into-action processes began!

Best,

Julian

PS: There again, I did wonder for a while if you two were playing at a little gambit I use in teaching sometimes (and elsewhere occasionally ) to check the 'paying attention factor' - that is, to slip a little deliberate mistake into a comment to see who spots it....

[msdt]

Don't tempt me Julian! That could be fun! With my Adrian helmet post for example on 'Equipment' I could have started something like 'this one has the first pattern lining, used on examples produced before WW1', then wait and see who's out there!

Aleck, re the cancelled 1913's taken into US ownership, being standard 1913's there are no clearance holes. My 2 examples are dated '6 17' and '9 17'.

Cheers,

Tony

[JMB1943]

Now, who is going to take up the challenge to compile a series of photographs of what is on GWF and the web re: pre-1916 bayonets with/without clearance holes and give us some idea of relative numbers of these as posted? Yes, sources will be required when publishing the analysis, and yes, sample-bias will apply - but only to some extent.

Trajan-----OK, I'll give it a go, since I seem to spend a fair amount of time on GWF anyway and have learned a lot from the aficionados here.

1. Just to be clear, I'll be looking for P.1907 Bayonets (Chapman, Enfield, Mole, Sanderson) manufactured up to & including 12 '15---correct ?***

2. Was Lithgow making them at this time ? If so, include ?

3. Are the Remington M/P 1913's to be included ?

4. Documentation will be via Excel spreadsheet, with bayonets identified by number (1, 2, 3 etc); photos (saved as Word docs.) will be identified by the bayonet number.

5. Headers--- Mfr. Month Year CH (Y/N) Inspection Dates Source

6. Any advice/comments/changes etc. before I commit pen to paper ?????

***In reality, I'm sure that I'll look at every P.1907 I can find, regardless of date.

Regards,

JMB

As promised, an Excel spreadsheet (current to 01-May-15) of all the P.1907 bayonets of roughly pre-1916 vintage, with an indication of whether they have a drilled clearance hole (Y) or not (N).

Most bayonets have a photo (e.g., #7!) while some are only described in a thread and do not have a photo (e.g., #8-12).

I have searched the "Arms" sub-forum (GWF) and the "Equipment" sub-forum [GWF(Equipt.]) of the Great War Forum, Gunbroker.com, Ebay.com, GunsInternational.co.uk and GunStar.com. I did NOT search "Miscellaneous", but located one bayonet there, as it was mentioned in the "Arms"

I have searched for Chapman ( C ), Enfield (E), Mole (M), Sanderson (S), and Wilkinson (W); have also thrown in the occasional Lithgow & Remington & Winchester for comparison.

Bayonet #4 is highlighted in red, because it apparently went through multiple inspections but never acquired the CH !!!

Regards,

JMB

PS. Found that I could not attach as an Excel file, so have converted to a PDF; this can be enlarged by zooming.

07 Bayos CH.pdf

[JMB1943]

Visual inspection shows that the non-drilled (N) clearly exceeds the drilled (Y) pommels, by about 2:1.

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

As promised, an Excel spreadsheet (current to 01-May-15) of all the P.1907 bayonets of roughly pre-1916 vintage, with an indication of whether they have a drilled clearance hole (Y) or not (N).

Visual inspection shows that the non-drilled (N) clearly exceeds the drilled (Y) pommels, by about 2:1.

JMB,

That is an amazing piece of work! Although it will never quite end the debate on the adding-of-clearance-holes(!) it does at the very least give everyone a fixed point of reference using a known and catalogued sample. My own experience from my ersatz unit-markings tables, by the way, is that once you pass the 75% of known examples point, then the pattern is more or less clear. BTW, I also tried to find out when the debate on this matter originated, and for the benefit of others, it seems to have begun sometime around three years ago and speeded up more recently, although only one earlier thread seems to have been devoted to the subject.

Well done - I'll raise a glass of the blessed hippocrene (aka as Efes!) in your direction later today!

Julian

[welshdoc]

Both my Remington and Winchester have clearance holes but Im not sure if these types are the ones in discussion.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108045&hl=%2Bvickers+%2Bbayonet

edit. Just had another look Mine I think are 1917s so do not add to the discussion

[Lancashire Fusilier]

As promised, an Excel spreadsheet (current to 01-May-15) of all the P.1907 bayonets of roughly pre-1916 vintage, with an indication of whether they have a drilled clearance hole (Y) or not (N).

JMB,

Excellent information, many thanks.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

I have searched the "Arms" sub-forum (GWF) and the "Equipment" sub-forum [GWF(Equipt.]) of the Great War Forum, Gunbroker.com, Ebay.com, GunsInternational.co.uk and GunStar.com.

I did NOT search "Miscellaneous", but located one bayonet there, as it was mentioned in the "Arms"

Just a quick word of advice JMB, you may want to consider going through the Miscellaneous forum, as before the Arms sub-forum existed, Miscellaneous was the only forum we had to post bayonet threads on.

Cheers, S>S

PS. You also may want to consider the following couple of points, which are a general rule-of-thumb (in theory, there may be exceptions)

• NO Hooked Quillon P1907 bayonets should have clearance holes
• NO Great War period Lithgow bayonets should have clearance holes
• NO pre-1916 British bayonets in Aust. use should have clearance holes
• NO Remington or Winchester P1913 bayonets should have clearance holes
• ALL Remington or Winchester M1917 bayonets should have clearance holes

[trajan]

Just a quick word of advice JMB, you may want to consider going through the Miscellaneous forum, as before the Arms sub-forum existed, Miscellaneous was the only forum we had to post bayonet threads on.

Very good ... - well, let's say observation to avoid the p***t word! Mind you, I do sometimes think it might almost be time for a 'Bayonets' forum...???!!!

TTFN

Trajan

[JMB1943]

shippingsteel, on 02 May 2015 - 6:47 PM, said:

Just a quick word of advice JMB, you may want to consider going through the Miscellaneous forum, as before the Arms sub-forum existed, Miscellaneous was the only forum we had to post bayonet threads on.

Wilco !!

JMB

[sgt-maj]

Ayup chaps..... been away from the site for a few months and clocked on to this thread to see whats been going on. It might be a daft question... but.... what is going on?

[trajan]

Ayup chaps..... been away from the site for a few months and clocked on to this thread to see whats been going on. It might be a daft question... but.... what is going on?

Currently exploring the clearance hole question... How frequently / often were they added to pre-1915 bayonets...

Seph, some time back, can't remember which nom de plume / nom de GWF you were using, you posted two lovely annotated explanatory photographs of 'typical' P.1907 markings, obverse and reverse... I have them downloaded... They were very helpful... If you can't find and re-post them, can I put them up again please?

Julian

[18th Battalion]

Here's my 9/15 Remington which seems to have eluded JMB's search on GWF.

[sgt-maj]

Ayup Julian,

Firstly.... In reference to those pics.... by all means, your welcome to post them if you have them.

As to your question about pre-clearance hole '07's being so modified. There is no hard-n-fast ruling on this modification being achieved within a certain time. It was simply a matter of applying the modification immediately to all new manufacture, but modifying existing items in service.... as and when these items were submitted for either repair, or during annual Armourers Inspection. Upon the latter happening, a number of already modified items would be swapped for those requiring to be so modified... thus maintaining a units war equipments strength.

We all know that many items have escaped this system due to numerous factors. One being that the item was already 'sold out of service', or another being that it was in captured stock, or even being held within an establishment that was deemed at the time as non-essential, and thus way down the pecking order. There are many factors as to why an item appears today without a clearance hole, thus we are left to debate the issue and reasons.... as were are now doing.

[trajan]

Ayup Julian,

Firstly.... In reference to those pics.... by all means, your welcome to post them if you have them.

...

As to your question about pre-clearance hole '07's being so modified. There is no hard-n-fast ruling on this modification being achieved within a certain time. It was simply a matter of applying the modification immediately to all new manufacture, but modifying existing items in service.... as and when these items were submitted for either repair, or during annual Armourers Inspection.

...There are many factors as to why an item appears today without a clearance hole, thus we are left to debate the issue and reasons.... as were are now doing.

Cheers Seph, so here come the pictures, and thanks for letting me re-post them as they are jolly useful -

As for this clearance hole business, well, JMB has got that really exciting chart and observations up at posts 83 and 84... Those armourers... Reminds me of the Gunner Asch story (The Mutiny of Gunner Asch) and the efficiency of the armourer in his artillery unit...

[JMB1943]

Thank you, 18th Bn; duly added to database.

I have not been able to spend any time on this for the last 6 weeks, will resume shortly with a dig into the "Miscellaneous" forum.

Trajan, it's beginning to seem like we're doppelgangers (both of our gfathers were trained as bombers; "Gunner Asch Goes to War" is one of my favorites...have to wonder what other coincidences will emerge.....).

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

Trajan, it's beginning to seem like we're doppelgangers (both of our gfathers were trained as bombers; "Gunner Asch Goes to War" is one of my favorites...have to wonder what other coincidences will emerge.....).