Martini enfield

[Hanniballector]

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w555/Hanniballector1/97F02CB8-3EA6-4DB7-9E32-A24BC711B769_zpsctcl3xsn.jpg

[Hanniballector]

Just thought some of you would like to have a look at this so sent some pics. Martini enfield with unit disk yorkshire yomanery hussars. It was rechamberd to 303 by henry barreling & co although only once I believe it would of been the black powder type only.Not sure what the six dots on the grip part of the butt are ... Possible kill marks ? From what I have read the regiment had some active duty in both the secound boer war and first ?

[4thGordons]

A bit out of my area of knowledge but wouldn't the markings suggest it was a Martini-Metford Carbine?

Chris

[Radlad]

A bit out of my area of knowledge but wouldn't the markings suggest it was a Martini-Metford Carbine?

Chris

They do indeed. And it is as marked.

[Old Tom]

Reminds me of the weapons that we used in the school cadet force for drill. That was in the 1940's for the lads in, I think, the third and fourth forms. (Those in the 5th and 6th became members of the JTC ( re designated the Combined Cadet Force in about 1948))

Old Tom

[4thGordons]

I believe I have posted this before but here is a wartime picture of ASC men armed with Martini Carbines.

Chris

Here is a Martini Enfield (rifle) converted by WW Greener to .22 probably for cadet or miniature range use. The muzzle picture shows how the barrel was sleeved.

[Hanniballector]

Yes your quite right it would be referred to as a martini metford manufactured by enfield. After its active service life it was then used for emergency use and then drill purpose. Used as stated by old Tom as a cadet rifle most of them being sawn through as cadets sometimes used live rounds in them. The barrel being marked with back to back R and asterix as you know meaning some sort of serious fault with the barrel or chamber ( rust coning ) or possible the rifling being worn out so I'm pretty sure this was the main reason for sawing of the barrel.

I'm also under the understanding that the early First World War version of the home guard used them as well as being used to shoot down air balloons.

Thanks

[T8HANTS]

.22" converted Martini's to full miltary spec were still being sold as 'club' rifles up until the late 40's. I shoot one every winter in a national postal competition, great fun.

[Radlad]

The 'asterisk' is actually 2 x broad arrow government ownership marks. These are stamped point to point to denote removal or disposal from government service (ie, no longer government property)

All DP rifles were clearly stamped to be such and cutting the barrel would be insufficient barrier to anyone wishing to try to fire it. There would also be a legal problem

under the gun barrel proof acts if ownership was transferred.

I cannot see any deactivation marks and if it does not carry them along with the appropriate certificate, that carbine would be classed as a section 1 firearm under UK law

[Scalyback]

Yes got one of my cadet 100 shoots done with one, .22 and a lovely to shoot.

Drill Purpose cadet weapons are painted over in bright pain and must clearly show DP on the butt (and I think barrel). Live fire weapons are stored within the armory and are held on the armory ticket rather than an individual one. Unless like me had a civillian instructor that held .22 target rifles on his ticket and allowed you to shoot on the indoor range with it for comp shooting. Strangely I never used a DP weapon,as my cadet hall was the area cadet drill hall!

[Stoppage Drill]

I cannot see any deactivation marks and if it does not carry them along with the appropriate certificate, that carbine would be classed as a section 1 firearm under UK law

I have to say again that this is not strictly accurate. A d/a cert and marks are certainly desirable and positively evidential but not an absolute legal requirement.

[Hanniballector]

It was deactivated and this year. why was the barrel sawn ?

[Radlad]

I have to say again that this is not strictly accurate. A d/a cert and marks are certainly desirable and positively evidential but not an absolute legal requirement.

Could you expand on this please? .303 is not on the home office list of exempt calibres and with the current attitude of the police methinks one would have to justify the

possession of it before a judge and jury. This could well be traumatic and expensive for the owner.

The original Martini-Metford carbine being discussed evidently is legally deactivated but I cannot account for the saw cut in the barrel.

[Hanniballector]

Barrel Star

Weapon Specification

Weapon Overview

On December 6th 1883, Barrels which had been previously lapped out and passed the shooting accuracy test, even though they still retained internally slight scratches or cuts, barrels were marked with a * on the just in front of the nocks form.

[Hanniballector]

I would also like to add that after the barrel was sawn it would have been refilled blocking the chamber and rending the weapon useless. In some cases private owners wishing to shoot these guns have so I'm told re sleved the barrel in .22 caliber and still been able to fire the weapon after other modifications had been done to it.

[Hanniballector]

[Hanniballector]

Here are close up pics of sawn and refilled barrel slice and the Asterix I mention'd earlier . On the left side is the sold out of service mark and faintly right side one of the deactivation marks.

[Stoppage Drill]

Could you expand on this please? .303 is not on the home office list of exempt calibres and with the current attitude of the police methinks one would have to justify the

possession of it before a judge and jury. This could well be traumatic and expensive for the owner.

A charge of possession of a firearm could be defended on the grounds that it is deactivated. A d/a certificate and marks would be accepted as sufficient evidence (as long as no work to restore serviceability has been done) but it is still be possible for the accused to show that the gun is deactivated, even in the absence of a certificate and marks. Of course, it makes great sense to have the certificates and to check that the gun has been appropriately marked, and I am only making a pedantic point. I am afraid that too many people take Home Office and Police diktats as law. Whilst it is easier and convenient to go along with this - anything for an easy life - it simply encourages our servants to crack the whip over us even more.

By "exempt" calibres, I assume you are referring to the Obsolete Calibre list ? This is compiled in relation to antiques, not de-acs. Again, it has no statutory force and is simply advisory.

[Radlad]

A charge of possession of a firearm could be defended on the grounds that it is deactivated. A d/a certificate and marks would be accepted as sufficient evidence (as long as no work to restore serviceability has been done) but it is still be possible for the accused to show that the gun is deactivated, even in the absence of a certificate and marks. Of course, it makes great sense to have the certificates and to check that the gun has been appropriately marked, and I am only making a pedantic point. I am afraid that too many people take Home Office and Police diktats as law. Whilst it is easier and convenient to go along with this - anything for an easy life - it simply encourages our servants to crack the whip over us even more.

By "exempt" calibres, I assume you are referring to the Obsolete Calibre list ? This is compiled in relation to antiques, not de-acs. Again, it has no statutory force and is simply advisory.

Something that has been certificated and marked is not a firearm and is out of the police authority unless used in a crime. The gun barrel proof house make the decision and they are the deciding authority. The police would like everyone to think they are in charge, but in this case they are not. Anything not marked will not legally be deactivated in the eyes of the law and police/DPP/courts could well be involved. This could well be expensive and traumatising for the owner, so the situation is best avoided.