fortytwo Posted 16 September , 2014 Share Posted 16 September , 2014 At Berry au Bac there is a huge mine crater which must be about the same size as the Lochnagar crater. My question is: was it fired by the French or German miners? When was it fired? Only two questions but difficult to answer as there is mention of the crater on the web but no date of firing or who fired it. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 16 September , 2014 Share Posted 16 September , 2014 If it's the one I'm thinking of, then it'll probably be the German mine blown on 6th December 1915 (12000kg/15000kg of cheddite) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 16 September , 2014 Share Posted 16 September , 2014 David Try this site: http://souterrains.vestiges.free.fr/spip.php?article47 TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 16 September , 2014 Share Posted 16 September , 2014 Actually, I'm not too sure whether it actually is the one I'm thinking of (the December 1915 was a 'double' mine with a slight overlap leaving an elongated 'figure 8' crater). Looking at it's location on a google satellite image, I think the 6th December mines were slightly further to the south. If that's the case, then this crater would have been blown at some point between January 1916 and April 1917 (not sure of exact dates without looking it up). It's definitely German though. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 17 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 September , 2014 Hi Dave, As I said earlier the crater is about the size of the Lochnagar crater and to fire that mine it was loaded with 54,000lbs of ammonal, therefore I would agree with you that the Cote 108 mine was not fired in December 1915 because it would take a similar amount of explosives to have created the crater that is there now. We must remember that there were several mines fired under the hill but the huge mine crater was one of those fired at a date not known. You suggest that the mine was fired sometime between January 1916 and April 1917 by the Germans. I have to question this as I understand that the hill was always held by the Germans during this date period. Especially during the Nivelle offensive starting on 16th April 1917 when the hill was attacked by the French, taken by them on the 16th but forced back to their starting line later that evening by a German counter attack. Therefore, I can't see that the huge crater was fired by the Germans, it must have been by the French, but when, who knows? Any answers from anyone out there!!! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 17 September , 2014 Share Posted 17 September , 2014 Therefore, I can't see that the huge crater was fired by the Germans, it must have been by the French, If it's the one viewable on google satellite images that you mean, then this was definitely blown under the French lines (Cote 108 - an elliptically shaped hill running roughly west/east - was held by the French almost as far as the cimentiere. A crater field (1915 and 1916 craters - approximately 23 mines were detonated in this area between May 1915 and January 1916) then marked no-man's land with the German held (higher) part of Cote 108 to the east of this... this was the situation shown on trench maps of the autumn of 1915 and not much change in location on trench maps of April 1917). Dave. PS.... just to narrow it down a little - 'your' crater does not appear on an aerial photo I have that dates from July 1916 so we're looking at a date from after this period. It's also just to the west (ie the French side) of the crater field on a later dated aerial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 18 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2014 Hi Dave, Have looked at Cote 108 on Google Earth myself this morning and the best description I can give for the huge crater I am talking off is that it is positioned to the south west of the factory unit that is by the canal and immediately north of a track that runs east/west. It can be confusing as to which side fired this particular mine. From what you have said I get the impression that the French were to the west of the hill with the western side of the hill being no man's land and the Germans holding the top of the hill. The huge crater is at the top of the hill and so I still would be inclined to thing that it was fired by the French at some stage. I'm afraid I do not have aerial photos or trench maps of this period to compare. Hope to get more feed back from you. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 18 September , 2014 Share Posted 18 September , 2014 David, Is this where you mean? Co-ordinates are 49°23'54.84"N 3°54'34.81"E The overlay map I used is May 1918, so may not be of much use to you. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 18 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2014 Hi Phil, On Google Earth it would appear to be the crater, however when looking at the IGN 2711E Craonne map it shows a crater in the same position and also what appears to be another huge crater further up the hill to the east and slightly to the north. So now I am even more confused as to what one is the largest crater and about the size of Locknagar. Any help on this? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 18 September , 2014 Share Posted 18 September , 2014 David, I know very little of the area, either from the military or geographical perspective. I just happen to have the map from when I was photographing another map at the NA for some-one a while ago. The map I used for the overlay is from WO 297/2634. I've now looked at the IGN and the one I originally flagged is definitely shown as a crater (Etonnoir). Using the map scale, it would appear to be approximately 50m diameter. The pear-shaped depression further East, which is about 100m x 150m, I have taken to be either a natural feature, or a quarry / pit as it appears on the base mapping on my trench map. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 September , 2014 Share Posted 18 September , 2014 On Google Earth it would appear to be the crater, however when looking at the IGN 2711E Craonne map it shows a crater in the same position and also what appears to be another huge crater further up the hill to the east and slightly to the north. So now I am even more confused as to what one is the largest crater and about the size of Locknagar. Any help on this? David... the area was heavily quarried pre-war and you may be confusing quarries with craters (The huge crater-like feature illustrated to the rear of the German line is the remains of the pre-war 'Grande Carriere' (the 'Petit Carriere' was also nearby)). The below map showing the crater position along with the 1914 -1917 ( through to 1918 actually!) frontlines should at least illustrate what I've been saying about the nationality of the crater for you anyway... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 19 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 September , 2014 Hi Dave and Phil, Your two latest replies have now made it clear to me. I was under the impression that the large hole in the German line was a mine crater. Such a pity this area is private land as it would be so interesting to visit. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 Höhe 108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 Have another bunch of French mapping to go with Egbert's (1916?) map. You'll notice only slight changes in the front in this area for most of the war. Most of the below date from February to April 1917, but there's one December 1915 sketch map and one of September 1918 (that shows the large crater). Note also the 'crater field' on the map titled 'April 1917 2' ... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 This British trench map (trenches corrected to April 1918) unfortunately only shows the German trenches at that period... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 A post-war aerial photo illustrating the large crater in relation to the crater field... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 This July 1916 aerial (large crater not yet made) illustrates the 'double mine' of December 1915 (central in the crater field and pretty much obliterated by mid 1917) that I mentioned in my first post on this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 March 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 19 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 September , 2014 Hi Croonaert and Egbert, Thanks for the maps. I am away from home for the next eleven days so will continue this thread on my return. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 19 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 September , 2014 Just one last word before going away. This crater is the one I first mentioned that is about the size of the Locknagar crater. It has been established that it was fired by the Germans, but when? With a crater that size the charge must have been enormous, any information on the amount of explosive used? Will reply to any information given on my return. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 It has been established that it was fired by the Germans, but when? Got a couple of dates for you.... 24th April 1917 (date given on a French post-card captioned 'Berry au Bac - le Grand Entennoir des Mines de la Cote 108 (24 Avril 1917)' However... a German guide book gives a date of 31st May 1917 so... take your pick! (at least it gives you something to work on!) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortytwo Posted 22 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2014 Hi Dave, Well at least it's a start. I'm in Poland at the moment and have spent the day looking around Bolimov, where he first gas attack of the war took place. Visited and entered the church where the Germans were able to see the effect of the gas from the church spire. German cemeteries close by from 1914 and 1915. Also trenches to be seen in the woods of what was the front line. So interesting to see. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bu6512 Posted 26 September , 2014 Share Posted 26 September , 2014 Hi Dave and Phil, Your two latest replies have now made it clear to me. I was under the impression that the large hole in the German line was a mine crater. Such a pity this area is private land as it would be so interesting to visit. David. Hi Its a huge crater and is very easy to go and see (no one stopped us) as far as I know it was blown in 1917 under the Germans. Then French colonial troops stormed the hill as cote 108 was the right flank of a large French tank attack in the valley beyond. Just down from the crater is a large quarry that you can see on maps etc. I went about 5 years ago. Lots of pickets and German wire all dotted about. I think my father-in-law as some photos I'll try and post them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 26 September , 2014 Share Posted 26 September , 2014 Its a huge crater ... ... as far as I know it was blown in 1917 under the Germans. As has been illustrated on several posts on this thread, that crater is located in what was (from September 1914 all the way through to July 1918) the French lines. The two certainties are: 1... that it was blown in 1917 (though the exact date is up for grabs) 2....that it was detonated by the Germans, under the French The only uncertainty is the exact date in 1917 that it was blown (and the size of the charge)... though we may have narrowed that down to somewhere within a two month period. See post# 11 for its exact location in regard to the specific front-lines. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bu6512 Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 As has been illustrated on several posts on this thread, that crater is located in what was (from September 1914 all the way through to July 1918) the French lines. The two certainties are: 1... that it was blown in 1917 (though the exact date is up for grabs) 2....that it was detonated by the Germans, under the French The only uncertainty is the exact date in 1917 that it was blown (and the size of the charge)... though we may have narrowed that down to somewhere within a two month period. See post# 11 for its exact location in regard to the specific front-lines. Dave I should have tried harder in school! what I was supposed to say; I always thought it was a French mine. I'll ask my father in law as he has a book on the subject I'll see if it mentions the date when the mine was fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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