Cuts in CWGC Maintenance?

[DaveBrigg]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this.

On our school visit to Belgium and France in Feb this year we met several teams of CWGC gardeners hard at work. At one site they were rooting out some of the shrubbery and loading it onto a flat bed truck. One of our students asked what was happening, and the English speaking gardener explained that the bushes were being removed from the least visited cemeteries to make it easier and quicker to mow the grass. This was necessary because of budget cuts, which meant there were fewer staff to do the work. He asked us to sign the book at every cemetery we visited to show that there were still visitors.

In August the students joined local councillors to commemorate the anniversary of the outbreak of war, and the cuts in cemetery maintenance were mentioned. It has now been suggested that the students make a formal presentation to the council, who would then send a strongly worded letter of protest to the 'powers that be' registering their dismay that the CWGC was having its budget cut, especially in this centenary year. However, before we start the ball rolling I wanted to check that the students have understood correctly. I can't find any reference online apart from a Daily Mirror article from 2011. Does anyone else know about this?

[KevinBattle]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it isn't actually budget cuts with the CWGC but the CWGC spending a fortune on a badly serviced website with constant upgrades that still don't match what a one man band was able to do with the very same CWGC database.

If the website upgrades have swallowed more of the overall budget, then that may explain why the gardeners budget has been affected, to pay for a second rate website design team who don't even understand to proof test on a dummy dataset.

The gardens and cemetery maintenance should be the core responsibility, not a website.

Yes, the website is invaluable for research but i don't think that was envisaged in its original brief.

The best way to counteract this is to do as suggested, that EVERYONE visiting a cemetery, no matter how remote or busy, to sign and comment on the cemetery, stressing how important it is that the upkeep is maintained as a dignity to the men and women therein, and to those visiting,as a lasting appreciation of their sacrifice.

I am disappointed if the CWGC as far back as February were being forced to cut gardeners in order to support a less than competent IT team.

[Ken Lees]

The maintenance schedule in the cemeteries is being cut. Grass will not be mown as often.

I was told this by a member of CWGC staff in the last few weeks.

[John_Hartley]

Just another underfunded public sector organisation.

[Seadog]

Underfunded?, not if they cut out all the many unnecessary items on the web site and hang on, adopt Geoff’s Search Engine at much less cost than I bet they have paid for the latest inadequate version. After all who monitors their spending to ensure that we who pay for this get value for money?

Norman

[keithjk]

Slightly on topic, I wonder if Scotland will have to pay their own way (much like Canada, Australia etc.) after Thursday ?

Keith

[spof]

Dave

If the whole CWGC budget was being cut as long ago as 2011, it would show up in the annual reports since then which can be downloaded from the website. I suspect any reductions in maintenance are from income not increasing as fast as costs and member Governments putting pressure on CWGC for their own pet projects in the run up to the Centenary e.g. all the work done around St Symphorean for August.

Glen

[Tom Kilkenny]

Can't believe that, in this day and age, the CWGC is still directly employing people when just about everything else has been outsourced.

[River97]

It's so nice to see many of you slag off such a wonderful organisation. If you can do a better job of looking after 1,700,000 war dead, maintain an online resource, and provide educational tools for generations, then crack on.

I would work for them for nothing.

Cheers Andy.

[John_Hartley]

After all who monitors their spending to ensure that we who pay for this get value for money?

That would seem to be a combination of input from the Commissioners, their external auditors and the Audit Commission.

[stevem49]

Difficult to sign books in a fair number of small cemeteries - they do not have them.

Try attacking the governments first and not CWGC.

[nigelcave]

Dave

If the whole CWGC budget was being cut as long ago as 2011, it would show up in the annual reports since then which can be downloaded from the website. I suspect any reductions in maintenance are from income not increasing as fast as costs and member Governments putting pressure on CWGC for their own pet projects in the run up to the Centenary e.g. all the work done around St Symphorean for August.

Glen

As I understand it, the St Symphorien event was paid for by the Ministry of Culture (or whatever the correct title might be) and not the CWGC.

[caulkheader]

Difficult to sign books in a fair number of small cemeteries - they do not have them.

Try attacking the governments first and not CWGC.

Signed 14 books in the last 4 days, interesting to see virtually the same signatures in many of the books, would have signed more, but as already mentioned, not all the smaller ones have one.

Today, a team of guys were stem cleaning (?) all the headstones, and the coping stones at Connaught cemetery. Keep up the good work cwgc!

[DaveBrigg]

Dave

If the whole CWGC budget was being cut as long ago as 2011, it would show up in the annual reports since then which can be downloaded from the website.

Glen

Good call Glen. I checked, but the latest report was for 2011/12. It did show a small increase from the previous year. We also noticed much work being done by stonemasons in February, including the replacement of panels at Pozieres Memorial and re-engraving headstones at Ovillers. I also found this earlier thread from 2011 which deals with the original story. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=160155

[Mark Hone]

Re signing Cemetery visitor books and making comments. I don't wish to knock the CWGC at all but it has been suggested on the Forum before that nobody at the Commission actually reads them.

[chaz]

having just visited a dozen cemeteries I concur not all have registers and visitors books. we saw Terlincthun with 3 people , 2 with hoe's and one leaning on a head stone. another cemetery had its surrounding brick wall collapsing at one corner and another having its grass removed for replacing. the rest were general well kept up and credit must go to the teams responsible.

my only thoughts were in talking with the mrs driving around, in 20 years time will they be in the same condition? will there be as much interest? will the next generation have any interest? nothing to do with funding just general interest

[Seadog]

I do not quite understand your post (16) as you seem to be equating the maintenance of the war cemeteries with the perceived interest shown by the public.which has nothing to do with the state of the cemeteries. The CWGC are funded by considerable grants from the contributing countries and their brief is to maintain the sites irrespective of the number of visitors, there again I may have just misread your post.

Norman

[John_Hartley]

my only thoughts were in talking with the mrs driving around, in 20 years time will they be in the same condition? will there be as much interest? will the next generation have any interest?

(1) probably not

(2) no

(3) yes, but it will be different (think current interest in the Crimean War)

[nigelcave]

having just visited a dozen cemeteries I concur not all have registers and visitors books. we saw Terlincthun with 3 people , 2 with hoe's and one leaning on a head stone. another cemetery had its surrounding brick wall collapsing at one corner and another having its grass removed for replacing. the rest were general well kept up and credit must go to the teams responsible.

my only thoughts were in talking with the mrs driving around, in 20 years time will they be in the same condition? will there be as much interest? will the next generation have any interest? nothing to do with funding just general interest

1. i suspect that, more or less, they will be. The same question was being asked thirty years ago - what will they be like at the centenary .... In the great scheme of things it is just not worth the hassle and political fall out from changing things except, where they think they can get away with it, on the peripheries.

2. Not as much but possibly back to the early 2000s, possibly a bit mor than that. This based on (1) experience of the US Civil War interest post centenary; (2) growth of interest in ancestry in general and accessibility to much more information much more easily; (3) the reasosn why people have been coming out for the last twnety years or so would largely remain post 2018 - eg school groups, interest from the reitred who (hopefully) will still have a reasonable amount of dusposable income for breaks and the like etc etc.

3. Next generation - possibly more, given that it is generally covered to some degree in schools (and makes for a relatively straight forward school trip), given relatively low costs to make the visit, given ancestry interest, amount of published information etc etc.

[chaz]

I do not quite understand your post (16) as you seem to be equating the maintenance of the war cemeteries with the perceived interest shown by the public.which has nothing to do with the state of the cemeteries. The CWGC are funded by considerable grants from the contributing countries and their brief is to maintain the sites irrespective of the number of visitors, there again I may have just misread your post.

Norman

Norman

what I was meaning is the general feelings in the world today. ,less people can afford to travel to specialist places although the mrs and kids would not object to costa del ibiza. the

CWGC may be funded but could there be a time when the funds are needed elsewhere, as already stated gardening is being 'trimmed' back , how long can they keep replacing head stones. we all have seen the defence cut backs reducing personnel why not elsewhere. my grandfather came back from ww1, 4 brothers didn't, my father served in ww2, I was in the air cadets my sons were also in the cadets but don't have that much interest in the wars now, cant see my grandson being that interested unless I take him around but then it would probably only be the once.

will there be a time when all budgets are cut and I wont get into the immigrant funding which is more important than remembering .

don't get me wrong, Im all for it but in todays society values are different.

[nigelcave]

Can't believe that, in this day and age, the CWGC is still directly employing people when just about everything else has been outsourced.

Quite. The reason that it has not been is because it is just not practicable to do it if the relevant regulations are to be followed and the full range of necessary skills brought to bear. Where the cemeteries are few in number, relatively small and widely spread, then 'outsourcing' is done, but still under the supervision of Outer Area of the CWGC (or whatever it might be called now).

Having spent a good part of this year along much of the old British Western Front, my overwhelming impression was that standards were as high as ever, with the exception perhaps of grass in one or two cemeteries - but grass is always a problem. Now in the early 90s, I think it was, the Cambrai area cemetereis I thought were pretty grotty in comparison to the neighbouring Somme ones: but that has not been the case for the last twenty years or so - at least in my opinion.

In recent years the Commission has done an enormous amount of maintenance on the Memorials and replacement/re-engraving of headstones. On top of that the very good service available now on the web site, the generally pretty prompt response to questions via the web, the arrival of the useful panels all contribute to remarkably good service it seems to me. I agress that some planting seems to have gone - eg small 'bushes' at the end of a number of the rows in several cemeteries, but nothing too obvious (to the eye of this non horticultural expert).

[Ivor Anderson]

Interesting insight into those who maintain CWGC cemeteries. Generations of one family in GAZA:

"The Gaza family tending World War graves for 100 years" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64344483

Edited 25 January , 2023 by Ivor Anderson