GEW 98 Serial number suffix

[Civil War Life]

Does anyone know of a source that gives information on the letter suffix of a serial number. I have an Erfurt 1916, There is a letter suffix below the serial number but I can't figure it out. Is there a chart somewhere that shows all of them, so I can match it up?

Please see the attached photo. If you know what the letter is, please let me know. Thank you.

Terry

[trajan]

Does anyone know of a source that gives information on the letter suffix of a serial number. I have an Erfurt 1916, There is a letter suffix below the serial number but I can't figure it out. Is there a chart somewhere that shows all of them, so I can match it up?

I believe that suffix is a written letter P in the Imperial German fraktur (but I would advise seeking a second opinion on that)

EDIT. Of course the other possibility is that it is a letter F ... bit hard to say, there is not a lot of difference between the two.!

Hang about SS , he was mainly enquiring as to sources! Yes, it could be a p or an f, and I can't check myself right now.

BUT Terry, there are several US of A sites that you can search with a variety of examples - they might even have one like yours! My own favourite is Gunboards Forum, which has a specialist Gew.98 thread - http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?855-Gew98-Research. There are several others though - Just Google 'Erfurt Gew.98' and you'll see!

That aside, there are some really excellent books on this rifle out there - again mainly US of A.

EDIT: By the way, note that there is no single 'Fraktur' alphabet. There are several variations.

[trajan]

Franz from Hamburg, one of my travelling companions, has just looked at the photograph and said without any hesitation that it is an 'f'.

[Civil War Life]

OK, I also believe it is an F. So the big question is what does that mean. I think it means that this is the 6th. series, but how many were made in each series. At what point did they start each series? Was the first set series A or no letter then A, B, C etc. Thanks to all above who have helped with this so far.

Terry

[trajan]

Somebody here at GWF might have the answer, but it probably exists on the Gunboards Forum thread.

For what it is worth, and probably not very much, WW2 bayonets went up to 9999 before a series letter code was changed. I would guess that if you can find a Gew.98 with a four-digit stamp then the same might apply.

[Michael Haselgrove]

Terry,

The numbering system ran from '1' to '9999' with no suffix. Thereafter it was repeated with the addition of the letter 'a', etc. Once a second run through the alphabet was necessary the letters were doubled i.e.'aa' and so on. The system is not so straight forward as one might suppose as there are some inexplicable gaps in the numbering blocks. In addition, a rifle took about seven weeks to manufacture so a rifle dated 1917 may, in fact, have been made in 1916.

The production of M 98 rifles did not begin at Erfurt until 1916 and had reached 275 a day by June that year. Some of the rifles are marked with a 'star' indicating manufacture from parts made at Erfurt and supplied from elsewhere. The total number of M 98 rifles made at Erfurt is, it appears, unknown but is certainly a six-digit number.

The above information is taken from "M98 Rifle & Carbine" by Dr. D. Storz. That book is the third of three books on German rifles and, although expensive, contains a wealth of information. The publishers are Verlag Militaria. Have a look at www.militaria.at.

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

...The numbering system ran from '1' to '9999' with no suffix. Thereafter it was repeated with the addition of the letter 'a', etc. Once a second run through the alphabet was necessary the letters were doubled i.e.'aa' and so on. ...

Thanks Michael, that fits with what I remembered about WW2 bayonets.

Julian

[4thGordons]

Some of the rifles are marked with a 'star' indicating manufacture from parts made at Erfurt and supplied from elsewhere.

Minor addition which is not directly relevant in this case but might be more generally when looking at Gew98 serials: According to Ball (Mauser Military Rifles of the World 4th ed p 168) the star rifles "had a numeral suffix as opposed to alpha suffix" he shows a photo of a rifle with what appears to be a 2 stamped under the 4 digit serial.

Chris

[Civil War Life]

Wow! you guys are very helpful and knowladgable. Thanks. And, I don't even have the gun in hand yet. Should be delivered next week.

Terry

[gew98]

The alpha suffix as noted was for 10,000 rifle lots. For the largess the letter 'J' was never used as it looked too much like the script "i" in written german . The production of gew98's began in late 1915 at erfurt. From 1915 until 1917 Erfurt predominantly manufactured in regards to gew98's receivers and spares. The scheme the germans used of supplying parts to artillery depots where many rifles were assembeled from new and salvaged parts to include receivers was widespread. In 1916 shortages of rifles required a revisions commission to approve out of spec parts across the spectrum of german small arms production. As well many rifles assembled by the suhl entities and erfurt were "sternegewehrs" and had the numerical suffix in place of the alpha . The majority of erfurt gew98's from 1916 and 1917 were sterne marked. To understand the 'german' system of proofing, serialing etc etc... Storz's work is first rate but has it's share of assumptions and flaws. As always don't take such works as "bibles".One of Storz's main faults was not referring to peices in collectors hands ... he paid more homage to museums and limited documentation than examples in collectors hands. A good friend of mine has done exemplary work in Imperial german proofings and manufacture of small arms ...especially the WW1 era suhl consortium. I suggest you visit this site for the meat of the matter : http://www.k98kforum.com/forumdisplay.php?31-Mauser-Rifles-1870-to-1918-The-Imperial-Era I could go on but it is alot of data relevant to few excepting some nuts like myself.

[trajan]

To understand the 'german' system of proofing, serialing etc etc... Storz's work is first rate but has it's share of assumptions and flaws. As always don't take such works as "bibles"...One of Storz's main faults was not referring to peices in collectors hands ... he paid more homage to museums and limited documentation than examples in collectors hands. ...

... I could go on but it is alot of data relevant to few excepting some nuts like myself.

Gew98, I guessed that the discussion of this one might reach you eventually!

With you on the first - don't take 'the' book as the 'bible' on the subject when it is based on museum collections mainly or even only. BUT, sadly so many collectors of bayonets and rifles are too selfish to share their data with others.

As for the second point- data - it is sorely needed in so many ways to make things more precise!

[Michael Haselgrove]

In answer to the above I feel it appropriate to point out that Dr. D. Storz, in the book I mention in my post, does acknowledge the contributions of both private and public collections. In fact, he lists five museums, six archives, a well known auction house and twenty three private individuals.

Regards,

Michael.

[gew98]

Mike ; The imperial small arms collections in the US far outweigh quality and quantity of what Storz had available to him in europe. Off topic a bit but 20 plus years ago when R. Law came out with "Backbone of the wehrmacht" He made more than his share of mistakes by befriending one collector of illrepute whom supplied alot of fantasy 98's for the book as though they were legitimate. As well Law made alot of assumptions like they were fact which collectors for the most part knew then were spurious. Law and Storz neither are collectors or students of german arms . Storz did the best and most methodical work by far. For example of an assumption he stated that there were no known maker marked gew98 muzzle covers. I have three gew98 and two kar98a maker marked muzz covers and forwarded him pics of them through a mutual german collector friend in Munich. Limiting research in this aspect has been a problem in many otherwise brilliant works. I know very few collectors that actively thwart sharing of their knowledge and to a degree I can sympathize with them as many frauds out there will pounce on such details to manufacture their 'attic finds' to defraud collectors. Most notable on this is collectors of SS small arms..... there are likely more fake such arms in collections than surviving examples due to the frauds among us.

But I digress form imperial arms. My friend Paul has studied the proofing system of fonts and frakturs of the manufacturers from the 1898 through 1918 period and can fairly tell easily when a danzig for example though made by danzig was assembled by a depot or another manufacturer. The germans - especially the suhl entities really helped each other out to meet quotas and numbers - rifles and their parts.

[gew98]

Does anyone know of a source that gives information on the letter suffix of a serial number. I have an Erfurt 1916, There is a letter suffix below the serial number but I can't figure it out. Is there a chart somewhere that shows all of them, so I can match it up? GEW 98- 19.jpg

Please see the attached photo. If you know what the letter is, please let me know. Thank you.

Terry

Terry ; Seems as I recall ... is this rifle the one with an unserialed armorers bolt ?. Someone was selling one recently on 'Gunporker' lately and it was a 16 erfurt that was overcleaned as this one appears and had an amrorers bolt in place of it's long ago lost original.

[Guest]

New to this site....

The serial # suffix is "f". I was the longtime caretaker of this '16 Erfurt Gew98 till last year, until I sold it to a collector on another site. He held onto it for a few months & then sold it on Gunbroker. Yes, it did have an armorer's bolt body.