Conscription records ?

[Elsie Davis]

I am trying to learn more about my mothers grandfather:

Percy William Champion, 7190, 203546

2/1st Battalion London Regiment Royal Fusiliers

Born 1883, West Norwood.

The info I can gleen states that he enlisted in Sydenham but resided in Lewisham.

Died 14/5/1917, buried and named on Arras Memorial

We dont have a lot of information on his (mum's mum was barely 4 yrs old when they moved from London to Gloucester upon his death - so no diary's etc...).

At first I was confused by his regiment - named on his CWGC, we have the report etc..

We have his medal card, but apart from his Victory medal, medal roll TPI/101 B/3 page 257, no dated for joining up, just "1 Lond R" and his number.

We have a comemorative medal but no details really on there.

At first I was baffled as the 2/1st were recorded as being disbanded in June 1916.

Until I noticed further down that the 3/1st ecame the 2/1st Batn in June 1916...

I was trying to gain regimental info prior to this - but then realised, he was 31 when war broke out and 34 when he was killed.

Thus could he have been conscripted after June 1916 to join the 2/1st to ship to Le Havre January 1917.....

It is just a guessed theory as consription was started by then - but are there any other records we can chase to either confirm this theory or try to work out what really happened ??

Thanks

Neil

[BFBSM]

Neil,

The Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914 - 1919 database provides the following information:

First name(s) PERCY WILLIAM

Last name CHAMPION

Service number 203546

Rank PRIVATE

Regiment London Regiment

Battalion 1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers).

Birth place WEST NORWOOD

Residence SYDENHAM

Enlistment place LEWISHAM

Death year 1917

Death day 14

Death month 5

Cause of death Killed in action

Death place France & Flanders

Theatre of war Western European Theatre

Supplementary Notes FORMERLY 4946, 3/10TH LONDON REGT.

Mark

[Old Cove]

Neil,

You can usually get a good idea of enlistment date from the service number. Paul Nixon has a brilliant website of service numbers and enlistment dates for many regiments and battalions (Army Service Numbers 1881-1918). He records 4514 joining 3/10 London Regiment on 14 February 1916 and 5158 on 24 July 1916 and I just looked on Ancestry and found in addition 4674 Henry Knight joining on 19 May 1916, so you can reasonably assume that 4946 joined up around June 1916. He might possibly have volunteered previously under the Derby Scheme (which you can read about on the Long Long Trail website) and been taken on to the Army Reserve until called up later - that seems to be the case with Henry Knight for example.

Roger

[Elsie Davis]

Thanks, that adds a little more to the jigsaw puzzle, mum will be pleased.

An enlistment date will help, we also now have a photo of him on a postcard, but again no date, mum thinks her mum threw out all his letters when they moved after his death - such a shame...

BFBSM, how did you find out that, I have searched several sites, incl the national archive and not got the 3/10. Not helped by being dyslexic, thanks.

How do I get to paul Nixon's web site ?

[Elsie Davis]

That is really helpful guys, but Mark I am interested to learn which is the best site to search on ?? we are chasing 2 other members of our family, one of which survived and every snippet of info helps to add to the story.
My mum is going to Kew, but the more we know now will hopefully give her more time to chase the more difficult bits..

Neil

[Longboat]

Paul Nixon's wonderful blog is here http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/p/index.html

Stuart,

[Elsie Davis]

Thanks, I was able to find it - via google....

So if we can use his original number to find when approximately he enlisted, can we use his subsequent numbers to find out when approximately he changed / moved to the 2/1st to go to France ?

I have the war diary of the 2/1st for 1917, and would like to know more of the jigsaw puzzle.....

So we know he enlisted about June 1916 as 4946

Then his number changed to 7190 (on his medal card) then becomes 203546 ??

I still dont full uderstand what the terminology is, 3/10th 2/1st ?? 3rd what of the 1oth ??.......2nd what of the 1st ??...

Thanks once again.

Neil

[kenf48]

Thanks, I was able to find it - via google....

So if we can use his original number to find when approximately he enlisted, can we use his subsequent numbers to find out when approximately he changed / moved to the 2/1st to go to France ?

I have the war diary of the 2/1st for 1917, and would like to know more of the jigsaw puzzle.....

So we know he enlisted about June 1916 as 4946

Then his number changed to 7190 (on his medal card) then becomes 203546 ??

I still dont full uderstand what the terminology is, 3/10th 2/1st ?? 3rd what of the 1oth ??.......2nd what of the 1st ??...

The London Regiment was a Territorial Force unit only and can be notoriously difficult to research.

The Territorial Force was formed in 1908,

see LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/tf.htm

Put simply in 1914 the 10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney) had headquarters at 49 The Grove Hackney and was raised primarily from local men. When war was declared this Battalion was designated ‘first line’ and prepared for overseas service. Recognising that men would be required as a reserve a reserve Battalion was formed, this was eventually designated the second line, or in the case of Hackney the 2/10th. Finally in early 1915 the second line were warned to prepare for overseas service and therefore a third line or reserve for the reserve was formed. This was the 3/10th, if your soldier was in the 3/10th Regiment that was the unit he probably joined originally and this was not formed until April 1915.

Direct enlistment into the TF effectively ceased with the introduction of conscription, however the numbering in the Battalion would have continued beyond that date as evidenced at post 3.

The 3/10th eventually became the 10th Reserve Battalion, this Battalion did not serve overseas. [The information about the 3/10th was taken from Soldiers Died in the Great War database (available on Ancestry and Find My Past).]

At some point in his career, probably when he went to France, or just before, he was transferred to the 1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers) and was renumbered, each Battalion had its own numbering system which led eventually to the renumbering of the TF in early 1917.

See http://www.1914-1918.net/renumbering.htm

As both numbers are shown on the card, and looking at Paul’s site, that means he must have joined the 1st Bn in France between June and before 28 August 1916.

Although you have the war diary you may find this free download of interest https://archive.org/details/royalfusiliersin00onei

Ken

[Elsie Davis]

Thanks Ken - all of this is really helpful and has cleared the mist some what....