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Remembered Today:

Who knows more about this East Lancashire Football Cup


Aurel Sercu
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To begin with : this item is post-war.

And also : I am starting this topic on behalf of an acquaintance, member of this Forum, but French speaking. User name : "Walbeer."

Walter (who can read English) and I have agreed that when someone replies with a posting, he can do it in English. (Or who knows .... French ? But having learned through the years that most GWF members do not fluently write French ... Is this an understatement ? Well, it does contain some irony... :-) )

Anyway, Walter may reply in French, but if so I will translate as soon as I can in English.

The questiuon is about a mysterious "Divisional Challenge Cup" from the early 1920s

This trophy. is made of silver (certified "silver quality").

Marks :

C&Co (Carrington & Co - established in 1873 by John Bodman, Regent street, London)

2nd and 3rd : An anchor and a lion

4th : an X, which means : made in 1922, and by the Birmingham branch of Carrington & Co

Diameter of the cup : 19.5 cm (approx. 7 1/2 inches)

With the handles : 35 cm ( approx. 13 3/4 inches)

Height : 26,5 cm (approx. 10 1/2 inches)

Base : 17 cm (approx. 6 1/2 inches)

Weight : 1.514 kilos (approx. 3 1/3 pounds)

Inscription :

Divisional Challenge Cup

Inter-regimental Football

Presented by

Major General T H Shounbridge CB.CMG.DSO

Commanding 42nd (East Lancashire) Division, T.A.

We have not found any information on the interregimental football competitions in the Ypres area.

The military career of Thomas Herbert Shoundbridge (born 1871) ended in 1923 (for health reasons)

C.B stands for : Order of Bath

CMG stands for : Order of St. Michael and St. Georges

and DSO of course for Distinguished Service Order

Major General became commander of the 42nd East Lancashire Infantry Division in 1919.

This division arrived in the Ypres sector between 9 July and 22 August 1917.

We have not found any trace of this competition after the war in Belgium.

Our last hope is the Great War Forum.

What precedes in this initial posting is most of what we (Walterhave found.

Sure we know what a challenge cup is. (We = Walter and his friends of the History Society of Comines-Warneton).

It is also known where the object was before Walter received it to do some research. It was in a farmer's place in Nieuwkerke (Neuve-Eglise, south of Ypres.) It was used to dosage the food for the animals (!), and it was given to a person (of GWF member Walbeer) in exchange for another object. This exchange happened in the interbellum.

"Walbeer" (Walter), the present owner and myself of course would like to know if anyone has more information on this valuable object.

In my two postings after this initial one, I will post details (the text and the marks).

Aurel

post-92-0-19469900-1409163830_thumb.jpg

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And the marks.

Aurel & Walter (Walbeer)

P.S. I will e-mail to Walter : if the solution for the mystery cup doesn't come from the GWF, you will find it nowhere else... :-)

post-92-0-27693000-1409164791_thumb.jpg

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Well, I am afraid I will have to kick this Topic a bit up again ...

And I had told Walter that there would be "dozens of replies". And that "no question on the GWF had never had an answe"r. Because the members there are "real geniuses".

Never thought that I could be so wrong .... :-)

True, it's about Football.

And the English team did not come back last month from Brazil triumphantly....

And Flemish team Lokeren is IN the Europa League, and Hull City is **T. :-(

But didn't we give you

Romelu Lukaku

and Simon Mignolet

and Adnan Januzaj

and Vincent Kompany

and Simon Mignolet

and Jan Vertonghen ?

You want me to go on ? OK.

Eden Hazard

and Thibaut Courtois

and Kevin Mirallas

and Sébastien Pocognoli

and Christian Benteke

and Moussa Dembélé.

Maybe I forgot one or two ... :thumbsup:

But I'm sure you can complete my list. :-)

NO ! Adolphe Sax and Hercule Poirot are not football players !

Neither is Tintin !

Well, enough. I only wanted to kick my Topic up again...

Aurel

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Aurel

Just to start things off I assume that the diamond is the mark of the 42nd Division; would it have not been disbanded by 1923? Could the cup have been a replacement made after the war for a competition that took place in 1917 I wonder and maybe brought over in the 20's for some reason?. There were lots of football competitions going on during the war; three of my footballers ended up in the Scots Guards and as none of them was Scottish I wonder if they were chosen because of their skills with the ball. The Guards Division definitely played during the war, the battalions put the results in the war diary. Hopefully some of the experts will come to your aid soon.

Pete.

P.S. Thank you for Romelu Lukaku and Kevin Mirallas Aurel, at Everton we are very grateful. We like Marouanne Fellaini too and Adolph Sax's invention is my favourite instrument.

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From the other side of Stanley Park, can I thank you for Simon Mignolet (although you didn't have to give us him twice)

Bruce

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From the other side of Stanley Park, can I thank you for Simon Mignolet (although you didn't have to give us him twice)

Bruce

and Divock Origi

although we have to wait a while to see how that works out.

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I don't suppose anyone has the 42nd Division war diary? If the Scots Guards are anything to go by there might be results recorded.

Pete.

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Just to start things off I assume that the diamond is the mark of the 42nd Division; would it have not been disbanded by 1923? Could the cup have been a replacement made after the war for a competition that took place in 1917 I wonder and maybe brought over in the 20's for some reason?. There were lots of football competitions going on during the war; three of my footballers ended up in the Scots Guards and as none of them was Scottish I wonder if they were chosen because of their skills with the ball. The Guards Division definitely played during the war, the battalions put the results in the war diary. Hopefully some of the experts will come to your aid soon.

Pete.

Thanks, Pete. Interesting. But I don't know what to say ...

War Diary of 42nd Div : yest, that may solve the problem.

As to our Belgian foot magicians ... I can start a hit parade with the number of mentions they get in this topic (apart from mine).

Right now the charts look exciting as to Who Will Be the Winner ? :

Romelu Lukaku : 1 mention

Mirallas : 1

Mignolet : 1

Fellaini : 1

Origi doesn't count yet.

Neither does Sax. (And he never will !)

Aurel

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Aurel

I am particularly grateful for the loan of Vincent Kompany to my area and wish I could reciprocate with some helpful information. Unfortunately not.

Pre-war football competitions took place within the East Lancashire Division mainly when the battalions were at annual training camp and I imagine this is a continuation of the same thing. Shoubridge didnt assume command of the Division until 1919 and, as pointed out, the cup was not made until 1922.

I came across no mention of the competition during my research into 6th Manchesters and the Division had pretty much returned to the UK by mid-1919 for effective disbandment. It was reformed in 1920. It's published history of the war period ends on 11 November.

I'd suggest emails to the three relevent regimental museums may be worthwhile as I assume they will have some postwar information about their respective units:

Lancashire Fusiliers - enquiries@fusiliermuseum.com

East Lancashires - enquiries@lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk

Manchesters - online contact details - bottom of this page - http://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom

John

(PS: don't forget to add Vincent to your score of mentions)

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John,

We'll wait a while, and then certainly will contact the Lancashire Fusiliers and East Lancashires and Manchesters.

And this is the new charts : growing more exciting all the time !

Lukaku : 1

Mirallas : 1

Mignolet : 1

Fellaini : 1

Kompany : 1

By the way :

1. Our Toby Alderweireld will leave Atletico Madrid for an English team. Newcastle "Magpies" ?

2. And Jelle Vossen, coming from Genk, being Belgian (Flemish) too, will go to Middlesbrough. But ... that is "only" Second Class.

If anyone wants to vote for Alderweireld or Vossen soon, feel free to. :-)

Aurel

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Just to start things off I assume that the diamond is the mark of the 42nd Division; would it have not been disbanded by 1923?

Re-formed in 1920 (lasting until 1941 and finally disbanded in 1943 before being re-formed (again) in 1947).

Inter-brigade , inter-battalion and inter-regiment football competitions were an annual event...or at least they were within the 42nd Division (I'd assume that other TA Divisions had their own also). Not only was there a 'challenge cup' competition, but leagues were also run. I've got a named runner's up medal for the 42nd Division's Inter-regimental football 'Divisional Challenge Cup' (the trophy this post is about) for 1926, so it shows that it was still contested (and in England) in this year at least. How (and why) it ended up in Belgium is another question though!

Dave

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Dave,

And do you think there is a way to find out where the other cups (other years) may be ? Or ... should be ? Or can be expected to be ?

Aurel

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Just a thought that might be way off the mark, Would there be any of them still working to concentrate graves etc.? I doubt if there were that they would have kept diaries. Just and idea as to how it would be in Belgium...

If the 6th Seaforth were as good at recording their casualties as they were at recording the results of their football matches, I would be a happy bunny. They even recorded extra time and replays etc.!

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Dave,

And do you think there is a way to find out where the other cups (other years) may be ? Or ... should be ? Or can be expected to be ?

Aurel

Yes... you've posted a photo of it! The same trophy was contested annually. Like the FA Cup (or the Beker van België or DFB Pokal or the Coupe de France, etc, etc), it was held for a year by the winners and was returned for presentation to the next winners the following year. Therefore, there aren't any more of them... the one your friend has is the only one (unless it got damaged or lost and a replacement was needed).

Dave

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Dave,

Somehow I knew this was the answer. But I was not sure ...

Thanks for make me feel like an ... idiot. :thumbsup:

Aurel

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The silver hallmark is for Birmingham 1922. :thumbsup:

Maker's Mark is, I believe, Carrington & Co

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