Help with hand written name in cover.

[River97]

Good evening all,

I have a question for you if you can help.

There is a name I am trying to decipher on the inside cover of this 1914 Artillery Manual and I'm having trouble.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FIELD-ARTILLERY-TRAINING-MANUAL-1914-NAMED-amp-CAP-BADGE-WW1-/231309926302?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=32Wgy3ho%252Fx1WVQWY%252FoiO4TRMCeE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

It has finished on ebay - and I was the highest bidder. The name is shown in the second photo. The name is not the be all and end all, but it would be nice to put a name to the book.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers Andy.

[SiegeGunner]

Arthur Pont. Compare the final letter of the surname with the 't' in 'Best Wishes'.

[River97]

Mick,

Thanks for the reply, I will see what I can drag up.

Cheers Andy.

[Doc2]

"Arthur Point, from father. Dear, Best wishes. November 13, 1914". I can't argue with the suggestion of "Pont", either, but I think I see another letter in there.

[clk]

For me it's Arthur Pout. There is a medal card for someone of that name. Service includes Gunner with RFA (Reg. No. 1618}

Chris

[SiegeGunner]

"Arthur Point, from father. Dear, Best wishes. November 13, 1914". I can't argue with the suggestion of "Pont", either, but I think I see another letter in there.

The writer dots his 'i' s, Dave, (see 'wishes') and there's no dot over the surname, so no 'i'.

Mick

[SiegeGunner]

For me it's Arthur Pout. There is a medal card for someone of that name. Service includes Gunner with RFA (Reg. No. 1618}

Chris

There's no other lower case 'n' to compare with, Chris, but the letter I read as an 'n' is nothing like the wide open 'u' in 'Arthur'. I'm sure it's 'Pont'.

[clk]

Fair comment Mick.

I hope it doesn't appear rude, if I expand on how I came down on the side of Pout though.

I assumed that as the gift from his father is an artillery training manual, Arthur would have a link to the artillery. I know that Ancestry does contain errors but when I searched the medal card index, the only A, or Arthur Pont/Pout that I found with a connection to the artillery was a card for A H A Pout, on which the first name Arthur had been written in. The address Tyler Hill, Blean, Near Canterbury also appears.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001254-02900/5690693?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmedalrolls%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dpout%26gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3drc2%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

In the 1911 Census - Arthur Henry Ambrose(?)(born in the Tower of London circa 1895), son of Arthur and Eliza (transcribed under the surname of Pont) is living in Tyler Hill, Blean. The handwriting on the image, presumably his father's, and the signature would seem to be a fair match to the writing in the book, and doesn't have the problem with the wide open "u".

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_04350_0051_03/50717556?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

The 1901 Census - Arthur (born in the Tower of London circa 1895), son of Arthur and Eliza, appears transcribed under the surname of Pont (edited by someone to possibly be Pout)

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/KENRG13_793_795-0749/5777695?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d35%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3darthur%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dpout%26gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3drc2%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

There is a birth for a Arthur Henry A Pout. Registered September quarter 1894.(RD Whitechapel 1c 302)

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8912/ONS_B18944AZ-0411/28761377?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dfreebmdbirth%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3darthur%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dpout%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msbdy%3d1895%26msbdy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3drc2%26msbdp%3d5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

There is a death for a Arthur Henry A Pout. Registered in June quarter 1969. DoB given as 14th June 1894

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7579/ons_d19692az-0921/39499626?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3donsdeath93%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3darthur%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dpout%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msbdy%3d1895%26msbdy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3drc2%26msbdp%3d5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Thanks

Chris

[SiegeGunner]

I don't subscribe to Ancestry, Chris, so I'm afraid I can't see the docs you have found .... the key one being the 1911 Census entry that you think is in the same hand.

The complete inscription, incidentally, as there are words written over the coat-of-arms, is:

Arthur Pont/Pout

From His Dear Father

with Best Wishes

Nov 13. 1914

[SiegeGunner]

I've now been shown a copy of the 1911 Census entry. Felicitations, Chris, it is indeed the same hand.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

You did a grand job there, Chris, and I hope Andy is impressed.

I admit I thought it was Pont before, but the evidence you've assembled for 'Pout' is compelling.The 1911 census record is certainly written by the same hand. Despite the mistranscriptions of the name by Ancestry in the census records as 'Pont' (showing how difficult it often is to distinguish 'Pont' and Pout'), the birth and death records, which are printed and use the full name exactly as on the 1911 census, and the MIC with the name in capitals and all three initials, clinch it. And as you say, the MIC shows he was an artilleryman.

I was impressed by his father's clear handwriting, really - he was a gardener, not a clerk. I also thought it would be great to be able to say you were born in the Tower of London!

Liz

[johnboy]

Gone up a bit in price from the original 9d!

[clk]

Thanks both. As a "newbie" to the forum, it's really nice to feel that I can positively contribute.

KR

Chris

[Doc2]

The writer dots his 'i' s, Dave, (see 'wishes') and there's no dot over the surname, so no 'i'.

Mick

Good eyes. Doc

[ypres]

Looks like Arthur Paul to me, he also crosses his 'T's. Medal index card also. Jim

View Record A E Paul
[Arthur E Paul] Royal Field Artillery 822, 740370

[Liz in Eastbourne]

No, Jim, where the handwriting was concerned it was between 'Pont' and 'Pout' and Chris has solved this one. Have you looked at the evidence?

MICs only show the various clerks' handwriting, anyway.

Liz

[SiegeGunner]

No doubt that Chris has cracked this one. My reading of 'Pont' was based on letter comparison and many years' experience of reading/deciphering handwriting, not only in English but also in German and French. Shortly before Chris posted his comprehensive findings, I had printed out a copy of the inscription and run a dry metal nib pen over the surname, at which point my hand told me that I was tracing the 'trough' of a 'u' and not the 'arch' of an 'n'. So I was already preparing to concede the point and am pleased to congratulate Chris on his excellent work. In future, I shall know to carry out the nib pen test before venturing an opinion, as it's clear that the 'evidence of my own eyes' can be deceptive.

Letter comparison alone suffices to be sure that the final letter of the surname is a 't', because that letter is identical to the last letter of 'Best' in 'Best Wishes', and the reading of that word is beyond doubt.

Mick

[ypres]

Liz, Thanks for pointing this out. Jim

[clk]

If for no other reason than to add a bit of context to the document Andy has bought, Findmypast has a copy of Arthur (senior's) attestation to the army, aged 18 (and 9 months)in March 1874. It shows that he too signed up for the artillery, initially for 12 years, but served 24, and was a "gratuity medallist"

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

You're constructing a whole family story here, Chris - as I said before, I hope Andy appreciates your efforts; he's the only person who hasn't come back to the thread.

This perhaps explains how Arthur junior, the WW1 soldier, came to be born in the Tower of London. If Arthur senior was 55 in 1911, as appears on the census, he'd have been about 40 when his son was born and perhaps just out of the army EDIT though that doesn't exactly fit with the dates, could he have still been in the army? I imagine him as an army pensioner with a job in the Tower of London, before they moved to Kent.

Better leave the proud booklet owner to follow that one up!

Liz

[Stebie9173]

The Yeoman Warders at the Tower would spend a period other the summer in training and would be replaced by a line infantry battalion for a few months which may explain the Tower part, or not....

Steve.