Fighter pilot training?

[GRANVILLE]

I came across this photo on the Internet. It caught my eye because it looks less than authentic and the site I found it on had no further information to add. Does anyone know it this is a genuine photo or not?

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

David,

This photograph is absolutely genuine, it was taken at the RAF Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers in France, and is dated 17th July 1918.

It shows a Pilot Officer firing at fixed targets, which represent German aircraft, from a simulated ' cockpit ' moving along curving rails.

Regards,

LF

[GRANVILLE]

Cheers LF. Do you know what drove the mock-up cockpit?

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Cheers LF. Do you know what drove the mock-up cockpit?

David

David,

It may have been a small petrol engine similar to that used in the ' Simplex ' 20 hp light rail engine, with the workings in the base of the cockpit simulator?

Regards,

LF

[GRANVILLE]

LF.

Got the PM's thanks, brilliant as ever. I think it must be the contrast settings etc on the photo I posted - to me it has a sort of 'studio'/unreal look about it, but clearly it's genuine.

David

[centurion]

Observer/air gunner rather than fighter pilot training. I believe that it was electrically driven (the Simplex engine would be more powerful than was needed). It's just possible to make out a cable running alongside the track. This would also allow an instructor to remotely control the simulator

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF.

Got the PM's thanks, brilliant as ever. I think it must be the contrast settings etc on the photo I posted - to me it has a sort of 'studio'/unreal look about it, but clearly it's genuine.

David

David,

The photo also gives the appearance of being taken in a wintry snow covered area, whereas, the setting for the Gunnery School was actually sand dunes.

Regards,

LF

[MikeMeech]

I came across this photo on the Internet. It caught my eye because it looks less than authentic and the site I found it on had no further information to add. Does anyone know it this is a genuine photo or not?

David

Hi David

This 'official' photo has appeared in books before (eg. page 184 of 'Reconnaissance & Bomber Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War', Lamberton & Cheesman, Harleyford, 1962). Probably it is part of a series of photos, now in the IWM collection. Another one that shows machine gun practice for pilots at the RAF Gunnery School, Rang-du-Flers, France, dated 17th July 1918 appears on page 23 of Chaz Bowyer's 'Airmen of World War 1', Arms and Armour Press, 1975. This shows a 'mock-up' cockpit section fitted with a Vickers machine gun and an Aldis sight. The cockpit is in a frame that appears to allow some movement (rotating & rocking?) while firing. The foreground shows pilots hand-filling rounds into web belts.

Mike

[Errol Martyn]

David,

This photograph is absolutely genuine, it was taken at the RAF Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers in France, and is dated 17th July 1918.

It shows a Pilot Officer firing at fixed targets, which represent German aircraft, from a simulated ' cockpit ' moving along curving rails.

Regards,

LF

He won't have been a 'Pilot Officer', as that rank was not established until August 1919 when the RAF was being reorganised as a peacetime air force.

Errol

[Lancashire Fusilier]

David,

This photograph is absolutely genuine, it was taken at the RAF Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers in France, and is dated 17th July 1918.

It shows a Pilot Officer firing at fixed targets, which represent German aircraft, from a simulated ' cockpit ' moving along curving rails.

Regards,

LF

He won't have been a 'Pilot Officer', as that rank was not established until August 1919 when the RAF was being reorganised as a peacetime air force.

Errol

Errol,

When I post a photograph, I typically use the original photograph caption, although we all know that in some instances, those original WW1 photo captions may have been written in error.

However, several photographs were taken at the RAF's Gunnery School that day, 17th July 1918, by War Photographer 2nd Lt. David McLellan, and all his photograph captions from that day refer to " Pilots " or " Pilot Officers ", attached is another of his photographs taken on that same day at the RAF Gunnery School clearly showing those attending the gunnery training all to be officers and pilots, and whilst they are awaiting their turn on the cockpit simulator they are put to good use loading the machine gun's ammo belts which are being used during the " Pilot's " gunnery practice.

While I am sure you may be correct as to the the RAF's ranking dates, the captions for McLelland's 17th July 1918 photographs, are also correct, in that all those shown in those photos receiving gunnery instruction are Pilots and Officers.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Observer/air gunner rather than fighter pilot training. I believe that it was electrically driven (the Simplex engine would be more powerful than was needed). It's just possible to make out a cable running alongside the track. This would also allow an instructor to remotely control the simulator

That particular photograph taken on 17th July 1918, at the RAF Gunnery School was for a gunnery training session for pilots ( see the previous post ).

An electrically driven rail simulator sounds more likely.

Regards,

LF

[centurion]

That particular photograph taken on 17th July 1918, at the RAF Gunnery School was for a gunnery training session for pilots ( see the previous post ).

An electrically driven rail simulator sounds more likely.

Regards,

LF

How many pilots used a Scarff ring and a Lewis? Given that the original captions refer to pilot officers when there was no such rank at the time must cast doubt on their accuracy

[Lancashire Fusilier]

How many pilots used a Scarff ring and a Lewis? Given that the original captions refer to pilot officers when there was no such rank at the time must cast doubt on their accuracy

None of us can speak for McLelland's terminology, all we have are the photographs from that day in July 1918, and the photographic evidence is indisputable, those shown in the photographs attending the Gunnery School on 17th July 1918 are clearly both Pilots ( wearing Pilot's wings ) and Officers.

Regards,

LF

[centurion]

None of us can speak for McLelland's terminology, all we have are the photographs from that day in July 1918, and the photographic evidence is indisputable, those shown in the photographs attending the Gunnery School on 17th July 1918 are clearly both Pilots ( wearing Pilot's wings ) and Officers.

Regards,

LF

Not indisputable where is the evidence that the man in the trolly is a pilot? Moreover one of the men in the photo of those loading belts is not wearing pilots wings

And there is still no answer to why one would train a fighter pilot to use a scarff ring and lewis combination

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not indisputable where is the evidence that the man in the trolly is a pilot? Moreover one of the men in the photo of those loading belts is not wearing pilots wings

And there is still no answer to why one would train a fighter pilot to use a scarff ring and lewis combination

We have the original photographs taken by McLellan on 17th July, 1918, which clearly show Officer/Pilots attending gunnery instruction at the RAF's Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers, and we have the photograph captions.

Obviously, you have the right to guess that they were Observers, and It would be useful to your ' Observer ' guess if someone in those photographs was wearing the ' Observer's ' insignia on their uniform, unfortunately, none of McLelland's photographs taken that day show an Observer being present.

To further confirm that Officer/Pilots were attending gunnery instruction on 17th July 1918 at the RAF's Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers, attached is detail from another of McLelland's photographs take that day at the gunnery instruction, which again shows a group of Pilot/ Officers seated awaiting their turn in the cockpit simulator, and whilst doing so, are also loading machine gun ammo belts. A Pilot's Wings is again clearly visible in this photo clip.

The original question was " is the photograph genuine ", and the answer is yes, and the location was the RAF's Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers, other than that, you are needlessly flogging your ' Observer ' guess to death, and it is time concede to the photographic evidence that Officer/Pilots were attending gunnery instruction on 17th July 1918 at the RAF's Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers.

Regards,

LF

[MikeMeech]

How many pilots used a Scarff ring and a Lewis? Given that the original captions refer to pilot officers when there was no such rank at the time must cast doubt on their accuracy

Hi

While it may be true that most pilots would not use the Lewis/Scarf ring, any gunnery training would be good practice. Also two seater pilots having a knowledge of what the observer/gunner could and couldn't do might also be useful. However, it was not totally unknown for pilots to fly in the rear seat on rare occasions. One example is Maj. Leigh Mallory (a pilot) commanding 8 Sqn. At the Battle of Hamel 4 July 1918, he flew in the rear seat of FK.8 'C8620', piloted by Lt. Toomer (belonging to A. Flight). This was to get a good view and first hand practice of air/tank co-operation.

Another example is seen in the shooting down of Zeppelin L70 by Cadbury and Leckie. Robert Leckie was the 'gunner' in the DH.4 involved although he also flew as co-pilot in H-12's (so would need to know about 'gunnery' anyway and need to be trained in the use of the equipment). I believe, if I remember correctly, there are other examples that appear in memoirs, so a pilot taking a turn in the gunnery trainer pictured may not be as unlikely as first considered.

Mike

[centurion]

Hi

While it may be true that most pilots would not use the Lewis/Scarf ring, any gunnery training would be good practice. Also two seater pilots having a knowledge of what the observer/gunner could and couldn't do might also be useful. However, it was not totally unknown for pilots to fly in the rear seat on rare occasions. One example is Maj. Leigh Mallory (a pilot) commanding 8 Sqn. At the Battle of Hamel 4 July 1918, he flew in the rear seat of FK.8 'C8620', piloted by Lt. Toomer (belonging to A. Flight). This was to get a good view and first hand practice of air/tank co-operation.

Another example is seen in the shooting down of Zeppelin L70 by Cadbury and Leckie. Robert Leckie was the 'gunner' in the DH.4 involved although he also flew as co-pilot in H-12's (so would need to know about 'gunnery' anyway and need to be trained in the use of the equipment). I believe, if I remember correctly, there are other examples that appear in memoirs, so a pilot taking a turn in the gunnery trainer pictured may not be as unlikely as first considered.

Mike

Observers would not get their observers wings until after they had completed the training as observers which would include gunnery so the man sitting facing the camera in your first photo could well be training as an observer as he has no badge. One possibility is that we have the crews of something like F2bs together here or more than one set of courses on the facility at the time. The majority of fighter pilots would not need training in the Scarff and Lewis

[GRANVILLE]

I would have thought it would have been a good idea to let both observers and pilots make use of the Scarff & Lewis so that the pilot had a good grasp of what the observer behind was having to contend with?

David

[mickdavis]

I'm not sure that the title Gunnery School should be used; as far as I'm aware, the only Schools of Aerial Gunnery were in the UK - there had been Aerial Musketry Ranges in France, at Bercke and Cormont. Elements of 2 ASD were at Verton and nearby Bercke-sur-Mer by summer 1918 and that unit's Pilots Pool Range is what I suspect the photos are showing. The Pilots Pool was a holding unit for aircrew (pilots and observers) who were awaiting posting to operational units. Rang-du-Fliers is only a couple of km from Bercke and the ranges faced the landward side of the coastal dunes. The rail mounted Lewis trainer is one thing but no-one seems to have pointed out that the pilots are shown loading ammunition belts - for use in Vickers guns, with which they would have to be familiar.

[centurion]

I would have thought it would have been a good idea to let both observers and pilots make use of the Scarff & Lewis so that the pilot had a good grasp of what the observer behind was having to contend with?

David

But for single seat fighter pilots a somewhat futile exercise. The only 2 seat British fighters in service at the time were the F2Bs (and the crews sat literally back to back in these so the gunner was literally in contact with the pilot) so this might be appropriate for pilots of bombers and corps recce aircraft mainly - thus the title fighter pilot training may have been some creative captioning by the photographer - more glamorous perhaps?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I'm not sure that the title Gunnery School should be used; as far as I'm aware, the only Schools of Aerial Gunnery were in the UK - there had been Aerial Musketry Ranges in France, at Bercke and Cormont. Elements of 2 ASD were at Verton and nearby Bercke-sur-Mer by summer 1918 and that unit's Pilots Pool Range is what I suspect the photos are showing. The Pilots Pool was a holding unit for aircrew (pilots and observers) who were awaiting posting to operational units. Rang-du-Fliers is only a couple of km from Bercke and the ranges faced the landward side of the coastal dunes. The rail mounted Lewis trainer is one thing but no-one seems to have pointed out that the pilots are shown loading ammunition belts - for use in Vickers guns, with which they would have to be familiar.

Mick,

You are correct regarding the Vickers machine gun ammunition belts, and in fact, in addition to the mobile cockpit simulator at Rang-du-Fliers, there was also a second static cockpit simulator which used a Vickers machine gun, and attached is a McLelland photograph of that static cockpit simulator at Rang-du-Fliers on which the Officer/Pilots were also training on 17th July, 1918, which is the date of the photograph.

Regards,

LF

[MikeMeech]

Mick,

You are correct regarding the Vickers machine gun ammunition belts, and in fact, in addition to the mobile cockpit simulator at Rang-du-Fliers, there was also a second static cockpit simulator which used a Vickers machine gun, and attached is a McLelland photograph of that static cockpit simulator at Rang-du-Fliers on which the Officer/Pilots were also training on 17th July, 1918, which is the date of the photograph.

Regards,

LF

Hi

This is another good image, from a different angle, of the device I mentioned a photo (which you showed part of in your post #10) of in my post #8. How many photos were taken by McLelland on this day?

Mike

[Andrew Upton]

Moreover one of the men in the photo of those loading belts is not wearing pilots wings

Which one are you seeing as the one without wings? The two on the viewers left both clearly have them, as does the man viewers right. The man seated centre back, although rather faint, also has them just visible. The only one they can't be seen on is the Scottie with his back to the camera, and that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have them as well...

[Dolphin]

There's always the possibility that while training with a Scarff ring and Lewis Gun wasn't a formal part of pilots' training, the trainee(?) pilots at Rang-du-Flers might have wanted to have a go on the Observer training railway setup. It looks like it would have been an enjoyable challenge, and perhaps a diversion from other, less interesting, subjects.

Gareth

[researchingreg]

I have a film of these train ers in action

David,

This photograph is absolutely genuine, it was taken at the RAF Gunnery School at Rang-du-Fliers in France, and is dated 17th July 1918.

It shows a Pilot Officer firing at fixed targets, which represent German aircraft, from a simulated ' cockpit ' moving along curving rails.

Regards,

LF

I have a movie of one of these units in action moving and shooting at targets and it seems the unit was gravity powered down a slope with ropes attached (for breaking?). However, the cockpit must have some sort of motor as the angle is adjusted during use. I suppose to simulate flying. Other times the units are used in a static position for practice firing machine guns. It is too big (559 Mb) to post up here. Also on the film are other aspects of aircraft maintenance, arming planes and general flying.