Bolt Blow Out

[RammyLad1]

One of the men I am researching was severly wounded at Gallipoli. His pension papers mention that the rifle bolt blew out and caused severe damage to his eye and cheek. He subsequently died from his wounds. What would be the cause of the bolt blowing back towards his face?

Duncan

[calibre792x57.y]

Can't conceive how this could happen. The striker of a SMLE won't run forward to fire the cartridge primer unless the bolt is fully locked. Contemporary cartridges were cordite filled so there is no question of a massive overcharge in the case. Possibly if a ball cartridge was fired with an obstruction in the bore - but this generally blows out the side of the barrel immediately behind the obstruction. No doubt some one will know of such a case but bolt failures with a standard 0.303 must be exceedingly rare. Now the NRA seems to have a thing about hangfires but in many years shooting I've had an occasional misfire but never knew anyone who actually did have a hangfire despite a couple of instances of people using some very elderly ammunition. Wasn't using a Ross was he? - SW

[centurion]

Wasn't using a Ross was he? - SW

Exactly my thought - it was known for this especially if dirt got in the mechanism which was a straight pull bolt action (it also tended to jam when hot) Very accurate though and some snipers used it after the Canadians ditched it in 1915

[T8HANTS]

I did read a published letter from a Rifleman on the retreat from Mons who said the bolt on his rifle had shattered due to use. I would presume that he was using an SMLE, but your Gallipoli man if a Territorial may still have been armed with an older CLLE.

G

[RammyLad1]

I would have thought that he was issued with a .303 SMLE. His pension papers survive, Joseph Killelea, 2091, 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, and details the cause of his injuries. I have heard of artillery guns exploding on firing but not a rifle.

[centurion]

As Sommewalker said the SMLE was very safe in this respect and even if the bolt shattered it would still be locked with the lugs at the rear and so would not blow back. The straight pull Ross could fail to lock properly sometimes and the type of injury you mention was the consequence. It has been discussed on the forum before. If your man was detailed as a sniper he might well have been issued with a Ross as it was much more accurate than a SMLE (The Canadians had used it when winning the Palma Trophy at Bisley and at one time the Ross was regarded as the most accurate military magazine rifle available anywhere.) AFAIK the Ross was the only riffle in use of either side with such a straight pull operation and with this fault. The straight pull had been adopted in the interests of accuracy and was safe, provided that the rifle was kept scrupulously clean (easier to do at Bisley than in the dirt and dust of Gallipoli)

[RammyLad1]

As a member of the Territorial Force would the 1/5th Lancs Fus. been issued with Ross rifles then? There was certainly a shortage of kit at the outbreak of war,.

[centurion]

As a member of the Territorial Force would the 1/5th Lancs Fus. been issued with Ross rifles then? There was certainly a shortage of kit at the outbreak of war,.

No not as a unit, as I said quite clearly some snipers used them and the 1/5th Lancs Fus might well have acquired a few for use by their snipers. Some Territorial Force Battalions were very good at acquiring non regulation kit for special purposes (eg light machine guns for a cyclists company) especially if they had a colonel wealthy enough to make a private purchase out of his own pocket or adequate regimental funds. In 1915 with the Canadians swapping their Ross Rifles for SMLEs they would not have been difficult to lay hands on.

[RammyLad1]

Many thanks for that Cent. My chap was part of a machine gun section, their gun was destroyed by enemy fire,he picked up a rifle close to hand which shot the bolt as he pulled the trigger. Ironically there has been a sudden downpour in Bury and as I took the washing of the line the peg snapped and flew into my eye, not very pleasant.

[T8HANTS]

We are assuming he picked up a British/Canadian rifle, if it was "Close to hand" it may have been a discarded Turkish rifle, or a weapon that had already suffered battle damage which was not noticed until the fateful trigger was squeezed.

[centurion]

Mainly because the Turks were equipped with the Mauser M1903 which was essentially the same as the Gew 98 and like the SMLE this did not fire bolts straight back at you even when damaged. The gun would not fire with the locking lugs not engaged and whilst a damaged gun might under some circumstances explode the lugs should prevent the bolt coming back at you but on the other hand see this quote from the War behind the wire -

"One souvenir in the Great War was parted with willingly. When a German seized Captain Tom Scudamore’s Ross Rifle as a trophy, ‘I told him he was welcome to it.’

The Ross had badly let down the Canadians in their stand at Second Ypres, because of its tendency to jam. Since the Ross’s other idiosyncrasy was to blow the bolt back into the face of the firer with lethal effect, the soldier who took Scudamore’s Ross Rifle may well have come to regret his choice of souvenir"

{Some British officers were carrying Ross Rifles in 1915 - for example 2nd Lt Oliver 2nd Btn DLI)

The Ross was also issued to some units of the RN (presumably it was reckoned that keeping it clean was easier on board ship) and some could well have found their way ashore during the Gallipoli landings. Possibly Killelea was plumb unlucky in picking one up.

[dman]

Steel for bolt could have received improper heat treatment which render the metal too brittle

I believe some US Springfields suffered from this problem which made them dangerous to fire as locking lugs

could break and cause bolt to fly backwards

[centurion]

Possibly in which case he was exceedingly unlucky to just happen to pick up an SMLE with that fault but to quote Sommewalker " No doubt some one will know of such a case but bolt failures with a standard 0.303 must be exceedingly rare". Has anyone got an example of a SMLE (or indeed as Mauser M1903) with that fault?

[Beerhunter]

I'll go along with everyone else on this. The Lee-Enfield (not just the SMLE) is exceedingly strong and bolt failures are pretty well unknown.

ALL of the VERY few range failures recoded in the UK post-WWII have been were down to serious operator error. For example when some moron fired a No.4 without a bolt-head.

Edited 17 August , 2014 by Beerhunter

[centurion]

RammyLad - you haven't said when and where at Gallipoli this occurred. The Ross Rifle was deployed in this campaign - from a history of the Newfoundlanders -

"On 19 September 1915, slightly over a year after Governor Davidson first put out the call for volunteers, the Regiment landed at Suvla Bay to take part in the final stages of the Gallipoli campaign. Once in the front lines, they soon won the admiration of their British commanders, as well as of the other soldiers in the 29th Division"

At this stage they were still equipped with the Ross but apt to throw it away if they could get hold of an SMLE

[beestonboxer]

I heard that the bolt was known to fly out if wet ammo is used hence the importance of keeping ammo dry I am sure a ballistic expert would be able to confirm this or not

[MikB]

This could and did happen - though very rarely - with Lee-Enfield actions.

When I was a cadet in the 60s, something similar happened on a CCF shoot at Rainham or Purfleet range. I didn't see the incident directly and didn't know the cadet, but there was a lot of alarm up on the firing point as I was waiting to shoot, and the white-faced cadet was helped off the point and into a vehicle with a massive white dressing over the right side of his face. Our RSM said the bolt had blown back.

The best explanation I've heard involved the cocking-piece slipping off the sear as the bolt chambered the round but before it was turned down to lock. Less likely is that the thread on the tail of the striker pin stripped out or snapped off. But every explanation would seem to involve some component being out of tolerance - possibly through wear.

Regards,

MikB

[calibre792x57.y]

The Lee-Enfield bolt won't do this - until the bolt is turned into the locked position it is physically impossible for the striker to move forward as the cocking piece is not aligned with the camway on the bolt. It will either go into the half-cocked position in which case the bolt is locked up, or the cam deflects the cocking piece and completes the closing of the bolt try it and you will see what I mean. The only case I know of was one with the No.7 Rifle a .22 conversion of the No.4, it had an auxilary spring on the bolthead which provided support for the rim of the .22 long rifle cartridge. It was possible for abuse of the action to bend the spring sufficiently so that it struck the rim and fired the (rimfire) cartridge before the bolt was locked. It was a bit of a lash-up anyway.- SW

[MikB]

The Lee-Enfield bolt won't do this - until the bolt is turned into the locked position it is physically impossible for the striker to move forward as the cocking piece is not aligned with the camway on the bolt. It will either go into the half-cocked position in which case the bolt is locked up, or the cam deflects the cocking piece and completes the closing of the bolt try it and you will see what I mean.

...

SW

I know what you're saying, but it certainly did happen in the case I mentioned - the RSM who witnessed it said it had torn the cadets cheek, and I can only guess how seriously hurt he was. If his head wasn't down in the aim as it happened, one imagines he'd be less severely injured than if it was. The incident seems to bear some resemblance to the OP's case.

Another guess at an explanation is that the lug on the cocking-piece foot was sufficiently damaged or worn to escape control by the camway in the bolt. My own SMLE certainly wouldn't allow it, but as a green young cadet, I obviously didn't get to inspect the rifle involved.

Regards,

MikB

[trajan]

Not so much on the bolt blow-out, but I did realise - when firing a 303 for the first time - how fortunate I was to be deaf in my right ear from the age of seven...!!!

[Beerhunter]

This subject has been discussed by collectors (of which I am one) over many years and the only reports post-WWII are with cadet rifles and were all operator error. (Including the one that cause the NRA to panic, only to recant later, a few years back.)

The one that I quoted earlier (no bolt-head) was one of these. Another was where a Cadet Adult Instructor put a service bolt into a a DP rifle.

[RammyLad1]

RammyLad - you haven't said when and where at Gallipoli this occurred. The Ross Rifle was deployed in this campaign - from a history of the Newfoundlanders -

"On 19 September 1915, slightly over a year after Governor Davidson first put out the call for volunteers, the Regiment landed at Suvla Bay to take part in the final stages of the Gallipoli campaign. Once in the front lines, they soon won the admiration of their British commanders, as well as of the other soldiers in the 29th Division"

At this stage they were still equipped with the Ross but apt to throw it away if they could get hold of an SMLE

This man was wounded on 5th June 1915 during the Third Battle of Krithia. He was eventually sent back home to England and died from his wounds on 9th August 1916. He is buried in a local Churchyard.

[Stoppage Drill]

. Another was where a Cadet Adult Instructor put a service bolt into a a DP rifle.

t'other way round maybe ?

[MikB]

This subject has been discussed by collectors (of which I am one) over many years and the only reports post-WWII are with cadet rifles and were all operator error. (Including the one that cause the NRA to panic, only to recant later, a few years back.)

The one that I quoted earlier (no bolt-head) was one of these. Another was where a Cadet Adult Instructor put a service bolt into a a DP rifle.

'Operator error' doesn't really cover it. The design was intended to prevent *any* operator action from causing the bolt to blow open. All the cadet rifles I saw in the 60s were standard service weapons with no modifications I can recall. The armouries I was aware of were managed by experienced ex-service personnel - often WW2 veterans - who knew the rifles from buttplate to muzzle. I can't imagine that a cadet would have been allowed onto a county CCF match firing point without a bolt head, or that he wouldn't've known enough from previous weapons training and practice shoots to recognise its absence.

Anybody know of any accident reports detailing how this could happen?

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

We're back to the original point the only service rifle where such a failure was possible let alone common was the Sam Hughes folly the Ross Rifle. Since the Newfoundlanders had not yet arrived on Gallipoli one can only assume that the victim was incredibly unlucky and picked up a discarded snipers/officers/RN weapon.