Chris Boonzaier Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 I am having a bit of trouble placing this. From what I can see, both British and French soldiers fought here.... is there an English name for this ? American records talks of the Californie Plateau, the Germans seem to call it Winterberg... If I was looking in a British book.... what would I look for? All the best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Hi Chris, You'd look for Californie Plateau. I think it's the Chemin des Dames sector. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 24 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Hi Christina, Thats what I thought, but I was/am confused that in the fighting in July on the Plateau British soldiers are supposed to have participated, at least according to a German source I had read... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Chris Is this July 1918? There were British units in support of the French-American counter-attack near Soissons, notably the 15th (Scottish) Division. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 24 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Hi, It would have been July 1917. All the best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Hi, It would have been July 1917. All the best Chris I am confused. Are you saying Americans were involved? There were no American units in action as early as July 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 24 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2004 sorry, misunderstanding... British units. The American mention came in because an American intel document says Californie Plateau. I assume the German site that says Brits were there in 1917 is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 The British fought in the sector twice as far as I know. The first time was after the 1st Battle of the Marne in 1914, when the British assaulted the German held Chemin des Dames. As far as I know there were no British units involved in the 2nd Battle of the Aisne in the spring of 1917, the tragic Nivelle offensive. There was, incidentally, ongoing fighting on the Aisne during July 1917, but no British involved I think. The second time the British were involved was during the 3rd Battle of the Aisne in May/June 1917 when, during the German offensive, the Chemin des Dames section was held by four weak divisions of the British IX coprs, sent there to recuperate in a "quiet" sector after being mauled in the previous German offensive on the British front. Ironically, they paid a heavy price for the fact that while the British had learned to conduct defence in depth, following German tactics at Ypres the previous year, the French army commander would have none of it and insisted that the main strength should be in the first line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 The second time the British were involved was during the 3rd Battle of the Aisne in May/June 1917 I think that was 1918. Angie, I think you are right. Technically, I am not sure if Mangin's counter-attack towards Soissons counts as 'Chemin des Dames' territory. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_East Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 The British fought in the sector twice as far as I know. The first time was after the 1st Battle of the Marne in 1914, when the British assaulted the German held Chemin des Dames. AisnAs far as I know there were no British units involved in the 2nd Battle of the Aisne in the spring of 1917, the tragic Nivelle offensive. There was, incidentally, ongoing fighting on the e during July 1917, but no British involved I think. The second time the British were involved was during the 3rd Battle of the Aisne in May/June 1917 when, during the German offensive, the Chemin des Dames section was held by four weak divisions of the British IX coprs, sent there to recuperate in a "quiet" sector after being mauled in the previous German offensive on the British front. Ironically, they paid a heavy price for the fact that while the British had learned to conduct defence in depth, following German tactics at Ypres the previous year, the French army commander would have none of it and insisted that the main strength should be in the first line. The second period when the British 1X Corps were involved on the Chemin des Dames front would be from the end of April 1918 and well into the summer.(Typo problem obviously) The German Champagne Offensive started on 27 May 1918.The 5 British Divisions in line got the full brunt of the German push and withdrew across the Aisne.So pleased was the Kaiser that he paid a visit to the battlefield on the following day and viewed the scene from the Plateau de Californie which can give a good view to Reims. The beautiful hillside cemetery at Vendresse reflects the British casualties of this engagement. The French offensive on the German lines in April 1917 is always associated with the French General Robert Nivell who devised the plan and whose failure resulted in his removal as the senior commander.It also resulted in the breakdown of army discipline at infantry level when units refused to mount further operations in the wake of unnecessary losses.Petain was brought in as Nivell's successor and was said to restore the honour of the French Army at the expense of the execution of nearly 50 "mutineers". A beautiful part of rural France which has had very little development since the Great War. Regards Frank East Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Le Cuziat, MBE Posted 25 October , 2004 Share Posted 25 October , 2004 G'day I confirm that the Germans called such plateau Winterberg.. because of the white limestone. THE name Californie plateau is coming from Henri Vasnier. Before the Great war he was selling champagne for Pommery.Vasnier went to USA .. and brought back to France seeds of American trees. He planted them nearby a farm he was owning a farm on the east side of Craonne village plateau. Most of the military French documents are so refering to Californie Farm and Californie plateau. No US DIV fought there..on the Chemin des Dames fought the 26th US Inf DIV.. FEB and March 1918...in the area of Malmaison Fort .. about 30kms west of Californie plateau. 4 exhausted British DIV were wiped out there on 27 mai 1918...lest we forget. Concerning mutinees.. according the last French docs we have.. between 27 or 49 men were shot for the sake of example.. many others went sent to jails. I know well this area.. because I am full time battlefield guide at the new French museum La Caverne du Dragon. Chemin des Dames is my work topic. Hope to have help you. Regards Yves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 25 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2004 Hi Guys, Thanks you very much indeed ! That clears up all I need to know. All the best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTS Posted 26 October , 2004 Share Posted 26 October , 2004 Just a quick word to Yves. I visited the Caverne Du Dragon a couple of years ago, and I would just like to congratulate you on a superb museum and attraction. It was one of the highlights of my trip to the Reims / Champagne and Verdun theatres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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