SteveS54 Posted 6 August , 2014 Share Posted 6 August , 2014 Hope I'm posting this in the right place and that it's not a naive question. I have recently come across a collection of badges, buttons and battlefield souvenirs that belonged to my grandfather, Harold Squires, who served on 1/24th Battn. London Regiment (720610). There was no information with these items, and although he lived until I was in my teens, I didn't know any of these items existed until I was clearing my late mother's house. Amongst the items was the bullet pictured below. It has obviously been fired, and the tip is blunted, but what caught my eye was that the blunted end has had a letter 'S' punched or engraved into it. My grandfather was shot in the shoulder in May 1915 at Givenchy, and was shipped home to be treated at a hospital in Nottingham. He eventually returned to his unit in May 1916. My question is whether this might be the actual bullet removed from his shoulder, which he has kept and later had stamped with his surname initial as a 'trophy' of his wound? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 6 August , 2014 Share Posted 6 August , 2014 If that was the bullet he was shot with then it was a case of "friendly fire"! The bullet looks like either a .303 inch Ball Mark II or Mark VI, both of which could have been in service in May 1915. Also, it has been fired in a British made rifle or machine gun as it has left hand twist rifling. However, whilst most British bullets had the manufacturer's code stamped in the lead of the base, I have never seen it stamped in the nose like that. "S" was the code for the Southern Circuit of Dum Dum Arsenal in india. Is there anything stamped on the base of the bullet? On the other hand I may be completely wrong! Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS54 Posted 6 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2014 Tony Many thanks for your reply - much appreciated. I can see nothing stamped in the base, even under a hand lens. The bullet is approx. 7.5mm in diameter. The base has a circular groove just inside the outer edge, then a narrow raised ring of metal approx. 4.5mm in diameter. The centre of the base is slightly dished, but I can see no trace of any marking. There are several other (unfired) bullets amongst his bits and pieces, but none are an exact match for the one I have pictured. One is very similar - silver-coloured metal, 32mm long, 7.5mm diameter, capital letter 'E' stamped in the base, pointed nose, 2mm wide groove approx. 6mm up from the base, but it doesn't have the same groove and raised ring of metal in the base as the one in the picture (there is just an outer flat ring of silver metal and a central darker circle approx. 4.5mm in diameter with the 'E' stamped in it. Any further suggestions gratefully received - I certainly hope he wasn't hit by friendly fire, but if he had been I am sure he would have dined out on it for many years! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 If that bullet was removed from your grandfather's shoulder, it must have hit him from long range, because these rounds are powerful enough to pass completely through a human at normal fighting ranges - say up to 500 yards or so. There's little deformation, scuffing or scarring to the jacket, which there would be if it had been slowed by penetrating some intervening cover. So if it was a case of friendly fire it was more likely a stray bullet fired at something else than another unit mistakenly engaging its own side. As TonyE says, the left-hand rifling twist is a pretty certain diagnostic for a British .303 barrel. The other pointed bullet you describe sounds very like a standard .303 Mk.VII. I'd guess the 'E' stands for Eley, but could well stand corrected there. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 Coupla thoughts: If there is a suspicion that the bullet caused granddad's wound, then perhaps the damage at the base of the round was caused by medical forceps during extraction ? Is there corresponding damage on the other side ? The slight flattening of the nose may have occurred when the letter was impressed, not when the bullet struck something. The only time I have seen a stamp on a bullet nose is on American Federal rounds - and they use "F" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 Just to confirm Mik's identirty of the bullet maker. The other bullets are regular 174 grain weight Ball Mark VII made by Eley Bros. "E" was their code. Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 talking of these macabre 'trophies' here is my great granddads 273 Private Edwin gate, 18th Bn D.L.I. , would I be correct in thinking it's german 7.92? it was kept inside his medal box so has an irony of his 'other medal' as he survived a gun shot wound to the chest. regards, Haydn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 As a general comment, it did seem quite common for servicemen to be given, and to keep, bullets, shrapnel balls and shell fragments removed from them. I`ve been shown several by the proud recipients! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 talking of these macabre 'trophies' here is my great granddads 273 Private Edwin gate, 18th Bn D.L.I. , would I be correct in thinking it's german 7.92? it was kept inside his medal box so has an irony of his 'other medal' as he survived a gun shot wound to the chest. regards, Haydn Hmmm... I guess it's just possible, but the bullet has a distinct meplat (flat) on the point, and doesn't really look long or pointy enough for a 7,92 Schweres Spitzgeschoss, the most common boattailed type. To be perfectly honest, I'd have to say I think it looks awfully like a 7,62x51 NATO bullet. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS54 Posted 7 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2014 Thanks again for all your suggestions. I've taken a couple more pictures, this time including the unused bullet I described in post 3. There is no corresponding dent on the opposite side of the base to indicate it has been gripped by forceps or pliers. What I have noticed is that it is very slightly thicker and less tapered at the nose than the unused one, and when I put them on the kitchen scales, the unused one weighed 12g but the used one was 16g - seems like quite a significant difference. If as you say this is a British bullet fired from a British weapon, and that it's unlikely a high velocity bullet would have remained in his body anyway, I'm beginning to wonder whether my Grandad was having a bit of joke with this. Might he have fired his own rifle at, say, a sandbag or a lump of wood, extracted the bullet with his bayonet and then got someone to stamp his initial in the tip for him? I can just imagine him showing it off to his mates back home as 'that's the one they tried to get me with'! Steve edit July - images removed to free up disk space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 One way to recover a FMJ bullet with minimum damage is to shoot it into water - though it could be practically impossible to find it again in, say, a shellhole or waterlogged trench. A big bag full of dry rags that's free to move with the bullet is another method I've heard of - but I've only ever tried it with low-velocity revolver rounds, not fullbore rifle. Shooting at a sandbag would cause heavy scoring to the jacket (rounds recovered from the sandtrap at a fullbore range are almost always scored and mangled), and shooting at a lump of wood could also be problematic because a .303 can penetrate more than 20 inches at close range, so cutting out and recovering the bullet might take a lot of work. A spent bullet at the end of a long,tiring trajectory through air seems to me the most likely origin . The pointed Mk.VII, as per TonyE's post, weighed 174 grains, and the roundnosed Mk.VI 215 grains. That doesn't quite match the 12:16 ratio you found, but kitchen scales mayn't have that good a resolution. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 I think Mik is right, kitchen scales are not the most scientific of instruments. The weights are both over but within kitchen scale tolerances at that low level. 12 gram = 185 grains, should be 174 gr. 16 gram = 246 grains, should be 215 gr. As for the other Granddad, that is a modern 7.62x51mm bullet by any judgement. Apart from anything else, the German "S" bullet was flat based, not boattailed and the vast majority were cupro-nickel covered (silver) and not gilding metal (Bronze) covered. Also, as pointed out, it is too short for the heavy boattailed bullet. (Schwere Spitzer) Regards TonyE Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 I think Mik is right, kitchen scales are not the most scientific of instruments. The weights are both over but within kitchen scale tolerances at that low level. 12 gram = 185 grains, should be 174 gr. 16 gram = 246 grains, should be 215 gr. As for the other Granddad, that is a modern 7.62x51mm bullet by any judgement. Apart from anything else, the German "S" bullet was flat based, not boattailed and the vast majority were cupro-nickel covered (silver) and not gilding metal (Bronze) covered. Also, as pointed out, it is too short for the heavy boattailed bullet. (Schwere Spitzer) Regards TonyE Regards Tony Hello Tony, you are right, compared it to some 7.62 I have and it matches, must have just ended up in the box at some point down the line. warm regards, haydn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 9 August , 2014 Share Posted 9 August , 2014 Mik This thread has been niggling at me for the last few days as I was not convinced by my identity of the round nosed bullet as British.Was it actually an orginal French Balle M that preceded the all bronze Balle D? I was sure I had seen one before so I had a dig in my "Box, bullets, non-British" and lo and behold, there was one. It is bright nickel over a lead core and weighs 232 grains, spot on the specification of 9 grams. It also has the strange double fold on the base. See my (poor) pictures. Even better it has a small "G" punched in the nose which I think is the manufacturer "Gaupillat". What I cannot establish is whether the Lebel or Berthier has a left hand twist but I think it must. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 9 August , 2014 Share Posted 9 August , 2014 The Lebel and Berthier rifles had 4 groove , L/H twist bores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 August , 2014 Share Posted 10 August , 2014 Many thanks for that, Radlad. Whether our man was shot by that or not, I am now reasonably confident it is a French Balle M. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS54 Posted 10 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2014 Many thanks again - very impressed and very much appreciated. This seems to have nailed it - the images and the weight match perfectly, and I have found another image via Google of a Balle M with a manufacturer's letter stamped in the nose, in this case the letter 'F'. I haven't found any information about French manufacturers that would enable the 'S' to be identified though. I've learned so much as a result of this post, and whilst is now seems likely that this is probably just a stray French bullet that my grandfather found and put in his pocket because it had his initial on it, at least we have avoided creating a family myth about this being the one that got him! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bu6512 Posted 10 August , 2014 Share Posted 10 August , 2014 Many thanks again - very impressed and very much appreciated. This seems to have nailed it - the images and the weight match perfectly, and I have found another image via Google of a Balle M with a manufacturer's letter stamped in the nose, in this case the letter 'F'. I haven't found any information about French manufacturers that would enable the 'S' to be identified though. I've learned so much as a result of this post, and whilst is now seems likely that this is probably just a stray French bullet that my grandfather found and put in his pocket because it had his initial on it, at least we have avoided creating a family myth about this being the one that got him! Steve It's not uncommon for a bullet to tumble end over end after it has come to the end of its trajectory or if it's hit some foliage shortly after leaving the barrel a 'stick shot' if the bullet is tumbling and hits a target on it side it will leave a 'key hole'. If this happened to your grandfather the bullet could easily stay completely intact. Also a friend of mine was hit in the leg by a ricochet in Afghanistan. The bullet was completely intact and undented I've seen the X-ray of it stuck in his hip. So don't rule it out as it could be the bullet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 11 August , 2014 Share Posted 11 August , 2014 Many thanks for that, Radlad. Whether our man was shot by that or not, I am now reasonably confident it is a French Balle M. Regards TonyE To be absolutely certain, one could measure the rifling angle and calculate whether it conforms to the Lebels 1 turn in 280mm. Not trying to out pedant a pedant, but maths does not appear to be a strong point in this thread, I can't get my head round the grains/grammes conversions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS54 Posted 11 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2014 This does the job: http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/grams-to-grains-table.htm My kitchen scales (which I accept are not the most accurate instrument in the world, but the best available to hand) weighed grandad's bullet at 16grams (= 247 grains) - a bit over, but within an acceptable margin of error for the Balle M at 232 grains (= approx. 15 grams) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 11 August , 2014 Share Posted 11 August , 2014 Steve, please refer to the quoted post re my reference to maths. Tony is probably one of the most pedantic posters on here and it is extremely rare that one catches him out Mik This thread has been niggling at me for the last few days as I was not convinced by my identity of the round nosed bullet as British.Was it actually an orginal French Balle M that preceded the all bronze Balle D? I was sure I had seen one before so I had a dig in my "Box, bullets, non-British" and lo and behold, there was one. It is bright nickel over a lead core and weighs 232 grains, spot on the specification of 9 grams. It also has the strange double fold on the base. See my (poor) pictures. Even better it has a small "G" punched in the nose which I think is the manufacturer "Gaupillat". What I cannot establish is whether the Lebel or Berthier has a left hand twist but I think it must. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 15 August , 2014 Share Posted 15 August , 2014 Never mind the grams to grains conversion factor (I have 1 gram = 15.4322 grains) - TonyE and Radlad have obviously identified this round. I'd wondered how the 'S' could've been stamped so precisely and sharply by anyone without special tooling. And the possibility of accidental friendly fire at the interface between different national armies with separate command and communication structures has to be higher than between units in the same army. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishoid Posted 4 September , 2014 Share Posted 4 September , 2014 Now I dont like to quote Baldric from Blackadder but -"What are you doing Baldrick"-"Carving my name into theis bullet sir."-"And why is that?"-"Well you know how they always say out there there's a bullet with your name on it? I figured if I owned the bullet I would never shoot myself."-"What a shame..."-"And the likes of there being two bullets with my name on it are very low indeed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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