Chester Pals 1914-1918

[Guest Frank Carman]

I hope that you can help me.

Grand-father Frank Carman: British Army War Records: enlisted in Chester, on the 26 August, 1914, with the East Lancs Royal Engineers, 68^th Field Company, (Transportation).

I would like to find any information relating to this Chester recruitment event: Chester newspapers stories; reason for which Corps chosen; number of Chester volunteers etc. Please can anyone tell me where this information may be available.

My Carman family lineage goes back to the 1500’s, in and around Chester, including Hoole. I am trying to compile a human story, for my grand children and hopefully for the people of Chester.

Thank you in anticipation

Regards

Frank Carman

[RussT]

Hi Frank

I was born, grew up and went to primary and junior school in Hoole, so I was naturally interested in your posting.

Must admit, I've not heard of the Chester Pals before - although I got one hit on googling it here:

http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/4242249/5

A few years ago I searched through the newspapers at the Chester Library for any mention of relative who died in the GW (I found some). They have all the main titles (Chester Observer, Chester Chronicle etc) on microfiche for the war years in the reference section (upstairs I think), so you could scan through some of those from circa August 1914 onwards to see if anything crops up on this subject.

I would be very interested if you find anything.

Good luck

Russ

[Fusilier11]

Hello Frank and RussT

intrigued by the "Chester Pals" reference. The newspaper article refers to a soldier killed. I believe this is 2328 Pte P E Tiddy killed 17.4.15. He served in B company 1/5th Battalion Cheshire Regiment. This was a pre-war Territorial unit though of course bolstered by many new recruits (Pte Tiddy joining up in Sept 1914 apparently). As such I'm not sure it qualifies as a "Pals" battalion, albeit an unofficial term in any case though any views would be welcome.

Incidentally only know (so far) of one Carman in Hoole who served- Ellis James Carman 97825 RAMC discharged 1917. Would be delighted to hear of any others.

[John_Hartley]

Assuming there was an "event" as such, then the local newpaper of the time is probably the best place to look. Not sure where they might be kept - County Records Office I think has some and there may be a local heritage library.

I've never heard of a "Chester Pals" either. As for the 1/5th Cheshires, it's certainly the local territorial battalion but its recruitment area was wide - reaching as far east as Cheadle (now in the borough of Stockport).

[Fusilier11]

Forgot to mention " The war record of the 1/5 (Earl of Chester's) Battalion The Cheshire Regiment" - there is a reprint available via Naval & Military Press - and "Subalterns of the Foot" by Anne Wolff.

[Fusilier11]

Indeed they had a substantial number of men transferred from 4th and 7th battalions (based in Birkenhead and Macclesfield) who were anxious to get to the Front apparently.

Newspapers on microfilm are available at Chester Library as noted by RussT but also the Cheshire Record Office in Duke Street Chester and some at Chester History & Heritage Bridge Street.

[Guest Frank Carman]

Hello Fusilier11

Many thanks for replying and the information

Sorry about the 'Chester Pals' title, it was just hope that it would find a link. I will have to think of another title.

Ellis James Carman, from Hoole, is most probably related. I have him in my Ancestry, along with my Grandad Frank Carman's brother John, 1902-1906, India, South Africa and 1915-1918. Also, on my maternal side a soldier who died, 1915, joined 1912, age 18.

Thanks again

Frank Carman

[kenf48]

'Pals' was mainly used in the North of England to describe locally raised Battalions of the New Army as opposed to those raised by the War Office, when up to strength the 'local' Battalions were taken over by the War Office. Chester did not raise any 'local' or 'Pals 'battalions in the strict sense of the word but did raise no fewer than five service Battalions from men presenting themselves at Chester Castle. The first, the 8th was complete by the 5th September in addition existing TF formations mentioned above were brought up to strength.

Recruitment for the the first battalions of New Army (K1) was originally based around around the six Army Commands into which the country was divided. Chester Castle was the headquarters of the Western Command. Although they were not 'pals' there was a story about a trainload of 150 recruits from a nearby town, as well as a local landowner and retired army officer who persuaded sixteen of his men to enlist and marched them into the town. I guess such groups would try to stay together but there was no guarantee they would in a War Office raised Battalion.

The Cheshire Observer is on FMP and the British Newspaper Archive.

By the 26th August 1914 when Carman enlisted in the Royal Engineers recruits at Chester Castle were averaging 100 a day but at the end of the month the numbers increased and by the 12th September it was reported 8,819 men had enlisted at the Castle since August 7th when special recruitment began, over 3000 in the preceding week.

On enlistment his army trade was originally listed as labourer, which was his peace time occupation, but he remustered as a 'proficient plate layer' having qualified at Milford Camp on 24th June before going on active service to France on 2 July 1915. He was wounded on 19 August 1915 and went back on the strength at Newark before transferring to the 201st(? Field Company) and returning to France on 27th June 1916. Back in the UK in November 1916 he returned to France on 25 April 1917 joining his unit from the RE Base Depot on 14 May 1918.

He was eventually renumbered with the WR prefix and at the end of the war was working at the ROTD or Railway Operating Troops Depot. On discharge he was noted as 30% disability (fitness category B2) and granted a small pension. Unfortunately his casualty form does not appear to have survived.

He did not go overseas with 68th Field Coy as they went to Gallipoli.

Ken

[John_Hartley]

Indeed they had a substantial number of men transferred from 4th and 7th battalions (based in Birkenhead and Macclesfield) who were anxious to get to the Front apparently.

The battalion history, already mentioned, has an embarkation roll which separates the men into their original battalions. I'm currently researching the 6th Battalion and had been struggling to identify them in the 14/15 Star roll - the list in the 5th helped weed out a lot.

[Bart150]

'Pals' was mainly used in the North of England to describe locally raised Battalions of the New Army as opposed to those raised by the War Office, when up to strength the 'local' Battalions were taken over by the War Office. Chester did not raise any 'local' or 'Pals 'battalions in the strict sense of the word but did raise no fewer than five service Battalions from men presenting themselves at Chester Castle. The first, the 8th was complete by the 5th September

I'm a bit perplexed by the definition of a Pals battalion, and I find the Wikipedia definition pretty poor.

I understand that the 8th battalion of the Cheshires was not called a Pals battalion. That is a fact.

But suppose somebody had said 'Let's call this the Ist Chester Pals battalion'. What would have been wrong with that? What was the vital difference between this (and numerous comparable battalions that were not called Pals battalions) and, say, the Ist Salford Pals (and numerous comparable Pals battalions)?

[John_Hartley]

But suppose somebody had said 'Let's call this the Ist Chester Pals battalion'. What would have been wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing. The term was entirely unofficial and, if memory serves, was a phrase popularised by the press more than anything else.

As discussed here from time to time, there will be folk (of which I'm one) who would regard Territorial battalions as "more pals than Pals". The idea of men who knew each other in civilian life serving together was long established.

By the by, it would be many weeks before the Pals battalions of the Manchester Regiment got to be referred to as "Pals". Before that they were the "City Battalions". I don't think that any of the "Service" battalions of the Cheshire Regiment became known as Pals - probably because they didnt really recruit from a defined area of the county.

[Bart150]

Interesting, John. Let's see if I understand you by spelling out what I take to be the implications of what you say:

Many battalions were formed from civilian volunteers from the same town. Some of these were called informally 'Pals' battalions and some were not. But this difference of name does not correspond to any difference in the way the battalions were recruited.

Now suppose I say this: 'Most of the Pals battalions were formed in the north of England.' All that statement can mean is that most of the battalions that had the word 'Pals' in their informal names were formed in the north of England. That's all: a rather trivial point.

Is the above correct?

[John_Hartley]

Bart

Yep, you pretty much have it right there. Some units had different informal names - the Grimsby Chums, for example, or the battalions of the Royal Fusiliers such as the "Sportsmens" battalion.

The only other difference is that some of the battalions raised locally originally had recruiting restrictions so that only certain groups could join. For example, the initial recruitment for the 16th & 17th Manchesters (at least) was that there were one of the "clerks & warehousemen of the city" - they had to get a confirmatory note from their employer. These battalions were funded locally at first - donations from major employers, etc, before funding was taken over by the War Office a few weeks later.

John