Two names on CWGC Headstone

[ArmyVeteranMum]

[rolt968]

17 hours ago, ArmyVeteranMum said:

Isn't 1924 outside the range of CWGC commemorations?

RM

[Knotty]

42 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Isn't 1924 outside the range of CWGC commemorations?

Indeed it is, but the IWGC burial record shows them named together with the dates shown and an acknowledgement that a special layout/badge design is to be provided. So it still begs the question what was the relationship if any between the two buried together.

link to CWGC page

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2753767/r-tavendale/#&gid=2&pid=2

[rolt968]

18 minutes ago, Knotty said:

Indeed it is, but the IWGC burial record shows them named together with the dates shown and an acknowledgement that a special layout/badge design is to be provided. So it still begs the question what was the relationship if any between the two buried together.

link to CWGC page

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2753767/r-tavendale/#&gid=2&pid=2

I see that Sergeant Tavendale's wife was Jane Hendry Tavendale.

[Knotty]

6 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I see that Sergeant Tavendale's wife was Jane Hendry Tavendale.

Good spot,didn’t look at the rest of the CWGC data…..note to myself “wake-up”😁

[Matlock1418]

On 20/08/2023 at 15:53, rolt968 said:

On 19/08/2023 at 22:33, ArmyVeteranMum said:

Expand  

Isn't 1924 outside the range of CWGC commemorations?

RM

Yes, out of war period.

The subject of headstone commemoration when out of war period dates has also recently been discussed here. - a pre-war example.

The I/CWGC seem to have been flexible back then but the exact mechanism for getting such 'out of war period' inscriptions added seems unclear, as does their proposed maintenance in perpetuity.

It thus also seems unclear what might happen in the future should/when such a headstone eventually needs replacing - Might the 'out of war period' detail possibly disappear?? [Fortunately in this case, given the good-looking condition of the granite stone, that eventuality may be some time off - but I still wonder, what then for this stone and for others?]

M

Edited 21 August , 2023 by Matlock1418

[chaz]

It's the maintenance part that gets my attention. Go to France and the graves are well looked after by the CWGC crews , the isolated churchyard ones generally looked after by the local citizens. Went and visited a relations yesterday here in England and apart from a run over with a mower these headstones/plots are now neglected. Originally the reports say, maintained by family, but that generation have passed, the later ones probably have never visited a family grave. Us it time the CWGC took ownership?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, chaz said:

It's the maintenance part that gets my attention. Go to France and the graves are well looked after by the CWGC crews , the isolated churchyard ones generally looked after by the local citizens. Went and visited a relations yesterday here in England and apart from a run over with a mower these headstones/plots are now neglected. Originally the reports say, maintained by family, but that generation have passed, the later ones probably have never visited a family grave. Us it time the CWGC took ownership?

A tricky subject as many UK graves are private.  Though CWGC won't maintain a private memorial they may add a Commisson headstone and look after that - provided they can get some form of permission from a relative.  I have seen several graves with a shabby private stone and also a shiny new Commission one. 

Not too shabby private but with a Commission stone. Lt HD WILKS at Ledbury.

Sometimes CWGC can get permission from a cemetery to place a Commission stone in situ for private burials but not on common burials, which are frequently unmarked, so not on the common grave itself, in such situations at a different location along the lines of "Buried elsewhere in this cemetery ... " or on a larger memorial to several casualties.

The UK situation seems to be that the CWGC also offer a small sum to help fund maintenance of an official plot [from recollection it was £20 pa, i.e. £10 for each of two visits - who knows if it has changed??] but it is also now clear they also rely on "Eyes on, hands on" volunteers [a relatively new initiative of the CWGC's https://www.cwgc.org/our-work/projects/eyes-on-hands-on] to maintain the plots and Commission stones - but sometimes the situation gets so bad that even they are defeated by the graveyard wildlife jungle and a plot can essentially disappear without access.  Heaven knows if they will be able to maintain the maintenance in the UK. ???  If not then only a half job done.

From long ago I was warned about not getting buried in a churchyard, as maintenance depended on the church's finances [increasingly poor it commonly seems - not that I am religious anyway]. Rather better to get buried in a public cemetery where public funds are available for grounds maintenance. [Hopefully I'm not going down that latter route anytime too soon!]  I think this sort of logic also retrospectively applies to many servicemen/women's burials and we can see the difference nowadays.

M

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
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[Knotty]

18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

provided they can get some form of permission from a relative. 

…..And from the Diocese of the church concerned, I know this as a EOHO volunteer, I have a private memorial in a very rural situation, with no living relatives, there is no problem with tending to the CWGC headstone nearby, but the dilapidated pm needs a Commission stone and as of last week we are looking at 18 months of asking with no reply, and by asking that is both in person to the local vicar who has had to escalate up the order, and by formal letter/email with the Diocese HQ by the CWGC, so you see the problems faced.

[Matlock1418]

On 02/08/2014 at 14:50, MaxD said:

My subject shares his CWGC headstone with a fallen comrade of the same unit as do some others who fell in the same action. What would be the reason(s) for not having individual stones?

Many have three to a headstone - especially for 1 July 1916.  Many were of different units and even some different dates.

Foncquevillers Military Cemetery - I have been lead to believe the ordering on the stones reflects the order of burials, but I am not at all sure.

Back to two on one headstone in the UK [but within war period] - these appear both private and common burials

Private grave I think - Brothers it seems = J H ESPLEY, 71129, RFA and W ESPLEY, M396280, ASC

Private grave I think - Brothers it seems = A H LEWIS,11384, Leicestershire Regt and S J LEWIS 11268, South Staffordshire Regt

Private grave I think - Father and daughter from different wars it seems - poignant = A HOLDCROFT, M.M., 13627 South Staffordshire Regt and Joan HOLDCROFT, W/276263, ATS

I also seem to recall a UK burial of/headstone for two/possibly three soldiers - I think they were likely from a hospital and buried over different days in an open public grave so as to end up on a Commission stone. [But can I find my photo? - I'll keep looking, one day it may turn up]

M

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
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[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Knotty said:

…..And from the Diocese of the church concerned, I know this as a EOHO volunteer,

Ah yes, that too.

Thank you for your EOHO work 

M

[rolt968]

I have been wondering about the CWGC commission's care of individual CWGC headstones in a local graveyard. In general the grass in the graveyard is well trimmed by the local authority, algthough there are problems where the grass does not grow well under tree cover.

There are three large groups of CWGC gravestones. The grass next to these is trimmed frequently, plants are planted in front and the stones regularly cleaned by the CWGC. However CWGC stones  which are not in the three groups whether on family graves or not do not seem to have been cared for by CWGC.

RM

[Matlock1418]

Back to two on one headstone [again this case in the UK], and a subject of a similar earlier post - one casualty within and one outside the war period

Private grave I think - Brothers it seems likely = W L TAYLOR, 810159, RFA https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/395123/w-l-taylor and J C TAYLOR, 820418, RFA [latter died 1927]

From the handwritten addition to the Headstone Scedule the extra seems likely to have been added after the original inscription [under what terms is not clear].

We thus also return to the question ... What happens when the stone eventually needs replacement. ???

M

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
correct

[Knotty]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

What happens when the stone eventually needs replacement. ???

According to my regional supervisor….it should be replaced like for like, as it was sanctioned by the IWGC/CWGC and that includes any additional agreed inscriptions. Then came the proviso that it is must definitely be CWGC, and not a facsimile which there are a few.

[Matlock1418]

41 minutes ago, Knotty said:

According to my regional supervisor….it should be replaced like for like, as it was sanctioned by the IWGC/CWGC and that includes any additional agreed inscriptions. Then came the proviso that it is must definitely be CWGC, and not a facsimile which there are a few.

Thanks for your reply. 

Not challenging the suggested situation - Does your supervisor know if there is any documented info/source on such arrangements?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/395123/w-l-taylor 

CWGC Additional info: Son of John Henry and Frances Mary Taylor of 4, Station Rd., Codsall. (In the same grave is also buried:-Gnr. Joseph Cuthbert Taylor, 820418. 3rd North Midland Bde. Royal Field Artillery. 25th Dec., 1927. Age 31.).

So I guess probably not a private facsimile.

M

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
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[Knotty]

46 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Does your supervisor know if there is any documented info/source on such arrangements?

Will check asap, they are not around now until after the Bank Holiday, so will need to put on hold until then, I’m also meeting up with them 6 Sept so a case of watch this space😁

As an aside here’s a facsimile in my local churchyard, correct size, wrong font and stone,but shows him has serving in 2nd Worcesters in GW which he did.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Knotty said:

As an aside here’s a facsimile in my local churchyard, correct size, wrong font and stone,but shows him has serving in 2nd Worcesters in GW which he did.

Rupert Henry MEACHAM

Interesting example ... clearly out of relevant 1914-1918 war period ... WFA/Fold3 MIC (SWB) and PIC show him discharged 29.1.15 due to wounds [Left arm amputated], claiming a disability pension as a single man and then his widow, Gladys,  claiming for a widow's pension in 1946.

[I'm not sure how/if that widow's claim would have worked/succeeded as seemingly married after discharge - it rather looks like married in Dudley in 2nd/June qtr.1917 - not sure so as long post-GW ???]

M

[PRC]

At the end of the day I doubt the GWGC can copyright a headstone, so nothing stopping a private individual from commissioning a headstone in an identical style.

This one can be found in the churchtard of the small village of Garvestone in Norfolk.

 

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

CWGC Additional info: Son of John Henry and Frances Mary Taylor of 4, Station Rd., Codsall. (In the same grave is also buried:-Gnr. Joseph Cuthbert Taylor, 820418. 3rd North Midland Bde. Royal Field Artillery. 25th Dec., 1927. Age 31.).

My understanding is that after the creation of the Imperial War Graves Commission the War Ministry, (and subsequently the Ministry of Defence), enterd into a contract with the IWGC \ CWGC to maintain non-war graves for those who subsequently died in service outside the qualifying period as well. So unless that contract ends the two brothers are likely to be commemorated together on any future replacement stone as that will be cost effective for the CWGC and the public purse.

However I don't believe that maintenance contract was back-dated to before August 1914. So the example that was quoted that included a brother who died while serving in March 1914 is a very different scenario.

Would love to see an official statement on that though, as I may be putting 2 and 2 together and making 5

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

At the end of the day I doubt the GWGC can copyright a headstone, so nothing stopping a private individual from commissioning a headstone in an identical style.

I think they have very strict 'rules' [Copyright??] on the use of their badge designs - trying to find my source etc.  

Edit: Found my source https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/frequently-asked-questions

The design of the CWGC headstone, the text and the badges engraved on them are all copyright of CWGC. They have been designed as official recognition of the sacrifice of war casualties and may not be used or copied by anyone other than CWGC.

How much they now enforce on headstones, or have in the past, are of course quite likely a different matters.

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

My understanding is that after the creation of the Imperial War Graves Commission the War Ministry, (and subsequently the Ministry of Defence), enterd into a contract with the IWGC \ CWGC to maintain non-war graves for those who subsequently died in service outside the qualifying period as well. So unless that contract ends the two brothers are likely to be commemorated together on any future replacement stone as that will be cost effective for the CWGC and the public purse.

However I don't believe that maintenance contract was back-dated to before August 1914. So the example that was quoted that included a brother who died while serving in March 1914 is a very different scenario.

Would love to see an official statement on that though

I think many of would like to see such.

M

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Matlock1418
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[chaz]

Dont know much about these two, I was visiting a relative and noticed this one. both Ex wartime, ? copyright symbols.

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, chaz said:

noticed this one. both Ex wartime,

Amazing how their service has resonated and passed down so many years later.

M

[Knotty]

2 hours ago, chaz said:

I was visiting a relative and noticed this one

Interesting that the headstone shown is in almost the same design as the official post war(2nd) RAF headstone supplied by the MOD for individuals in non CWGC plots.  
Shame about the font and letter positioning.

 

CWGC North Weald Bassett (St Andrews) Churchyard  © by Chris Day