Strange bayonets at Festubert 1915

[trajan]

These are details and the caption from one of three photographs of the 'Les vainqueurs de Festubert', published in L'Album de la Guerre 1914-1919 vol 1, pp.276-277, the same photograph showing bagpipers (some kilted,some not) on the right-hand side, and one of the other photographs showing French, Joffre and Wilson. So a group evidently taken at a commemorative review and so I guess mid-late May 1915. Now, what are those bayonets? They certainly don't look like anything for a SMLE... Or am I missing something obvious, as in trees and forests?

[T8HANTS]

My hunch is that they are SMLE's and correct bayonets, but what you are seeing is combination of light reflecting off the metal parts of the bayonets, the photo reproduction techniques of the period, and that there is I think, two files almost superimposed upon each other as viewed in the enlarged photograph.

I don't think you have discovered the only known photo of Enfield or Martini socket bayonets being reissued for use with the SMLE.

G

[trajan]

My hunch is that they are SMLE's and correct bayonets, but what you are seeing is combination of light reflecting off the metal parts of the bayonets, the photo reproduction techniques of the period, and that there is I think, two files almost superimposed upon each other as viewed in the enlarged photograph.

I don't think you have discovered the only known photo of Enfield or Martini socket bayonets being reissued for use with the SMLE.

G

Well, I did wonder if it was a double exposure, but the visible flaps on the gor-blimeyhats worn by the chaps on the right (see below) suggest that it is not.

Also look at the space between the top of the 'nose cap' and where that elbow attachment to the bayonets is. IF it had been a double-exposure that wouldn't be visible.

Ok, yes, an early example of 'photo-shopping' is possible, but on the original print I can count 10 men in the nearmost file with clearly visible bayonets of the same type, and it seems that they are marching four a breast, and from what is visible I can count 22 bayonets of this type. And they all do look like socket bayonets...

[T8HANTS]

I am working on the assumption that cannot be socket bayonets, so what we are looking at is some form of optical illusion, caused by or enhanced by the methods used to print photos in publications at the time. I don't think the photo has been altered; it is just a trick of the light shining off the bottom of the nose cap, and the steel spine of the bayonet making it look like a gap.

[Stoppage Drill]

I am working on the assumption that cannot be socket bayonets, so what we are looking at is some form of optical illusion, caused by or enhanced by the methods used to print photos in publications at the time. I don't think the photo has been altered; it is just a trick of the light shining off the bottom of the nose cap, and the steel spine of the bayonet making it look like a gap.

Odd that the same optical illusion has affected every bayonet ?

Is it possible that a stock photo has been used, and erroneously captioned, and that the image is of a pre-war TF unit, or that "Home Guard" organisation I can't remember the name of ? I believe they retained Enfield Martinis into the GW period, and would have had the 1876/95 converted socket ? Just an idea for discussion !

Very strange . . . .

[T8HANTS]

Enfield Martinis were used during WW1 training, but I see SMLEs, also records at the time would have noted something along the lines of 50,000 Martini bayonets converted for the "Special Reserve". They would by now be a highly prized collector’s item, and letters of the time would have complained that they had been issued with second rate bayonets.

[trajan]

I am working on the assumption that cannot be socket bayonets, so what we are looking at is some form of optical illusion, caused by or enhanced by the methods used to print photos in publications at the time. I don't think the photo has been altered; it is just a trick of the light shining off the bottom of the nose cap, and the steel spine of the bayonet making it look like a gap.

I have checked on socket bayonets and none have the elbow that far back, and so yes, I guess it must be an optical illusion

Odd that the same optical illusion has affected every bayonet ?

Is it possible that a stock photo has been used, and erroneously captioned, and that the image is of a pre-war TF unit, or that "Home Guard" organisation I can't remember the name of ? I believe they retained Enfield Martinis into the GW period, and would have had the 1876/95 converted socket ? Just an idea for discussion !

Very strange . . . .

Yes, the numbers of these is what had me thinking it was an odd optical illusion...

The photo was published in 1926 and spreads over two pages - if you look at the one in the OP you can see the photographers lined up to take one of the saluting group - French, Joffre, etc.

Enfield Martinis were used during WW1 training, but I see SMLEs, also records at the time would have noted something along the lines of 50,000 Martini bayonets converted for the "Special Reserve". They would by now be a highly prized collector’s item, and letters of the time would have complained that they had been issued with second rate bayonets.

Yep, after not finding anything socket-wise to fit that elbow-nose cap gap, I guess it has to be an odd trick of the light / reproduction process! Thanks for your input!

[T8HANTS]

I have checked on socket bayonets and none have the elbow that far back, and so yes, I guess it must be an optical illusion

Yes, the numbers of these is what had me thinking it was an odd optical illusion...

The photo was published in 1926 and spreads over two pages - if you look at the one in the OP you can see the photographers lined up to take one of the saluting group - French, Joffre, etc.

Yep, after not finding anything socket-wise to fit that elbow-nose cap gap, I guess it has to be an odd trick of the light / reproduction process! Thanks for your input!

Thanks for finding a fun photograph to have a chat about. Think I'm off down the wokshop to create that little known bayonet the "Martini/SMLE conversion" for home defence troops - ebay watch out!!

[trajan]

Make one for me while you are at it please!

It is an odd photograph, but I think that you are right, it is something to do with whatever and they are 1907's, and certainly no socket bayonet would have the elbow that far back. Maybe they all have those light orangey-coloured (and light-reflective) grips as on the early 1907's and not the dark wood ones found later? Either way, as I said in the OP, "Or am I missing something obvious, as in trees and forests?

Trajan

[Khaki]

It may well be that the photographer has artistically added the bayonets to the rifles, I have seen a number of photos where items have been added including medals. Some of the rifles look as those an artist has touched them up as they seem too thick. I maybe wrong but that sort of thing wasn't unusual in those days.

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

It may well be that the photographer has artistically added the bayonets to the rifles, I have seen a number of photos where items have been added including medals. Some of the rifles look as those an artist has touched them up as they seem too thick. I maybe wrong but that sort of thing wasn't unusual in those days.

khaki

Quite common, in fact, when you look, for example, at some of the War Illustrated images. So my money would be on what you say, khaki.

[trajan]

It may well be that the photographer has artistically added the bayonets to the rifles, I have seen a number of photos where items have been added including medals. Some of the rifles look as those an artist has touched them up as they seem too thick. I maybe wrong but that sort of thing wasn't unusual in those days.

Quite common, in fact, when you look, for example, at some of the War Illustrated images. So my money would be on what you say, khaki.

I had wondered about this earlier, and thought 'No way, far too many to have been added in', but having failed to find a socket bayonet with an elbow to match the gap between catch and nose cap, maybe you are right. Or, perhaps, as T8Hants indicated, the grips (orange-coloured in the early versions) didn't register...

Whatever, yep, those strange bayonets can be explained away as [A], tricks of light and/or photograph registration process, or , 1915 'photo-shopping'!

Thanks one and all!

[auchonvillerssomme]

If you look down the line of the bayonet you can add the bit that appears to be missing.

[Stoppage Drill]

You would never get any sort of socket bayonet to attach to the bayonet boss of an SMLE, it's far too short and there is no way of locking it on. If those are socket bayonets, then the rifles are not SMLEs.

[trajan]

... If those are socket bayonets, then the rifles are not SMLEs.

I think we have established they cannot be socket bayonets in any case as the elbow is too far down from the muzzle. And so, as in post 12, either a trick of light/processing of image with light-coloured grips or serious 'photo-shopping'. I tend to go for the former, given that many of the early P1907 bayonets had distinctly orange grips.