trajan Posted 25 July , 2014 Share Posted 25 July , 2014 For a research project I have initiated I would appreciate any help from GWF members on any EB 3's in their possession! I am especially interested in learning about fraktur spine markings plus any other markings that these might have. To start the ball rolling, here is one of mine, referenced on another thread, http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214592, with a re-used blade bearing what seems to be a Belgian Inspector's mark, plus a 'Q' fraktur mark on the spine... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2014 And here is a regular EB 3 (i.e., with a purpose-made blade) with a 'N' fraktur mark on the spine and the ricasso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2014 And here is one more, a regular EB 3, with what looks to be a 'G' fraktur mark on the spine only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2014 To these we should add an example published by Williams, with an 'L' on the ricasso and the spine, his p.40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2014 Oh, and unit markings... These are not likely to be significant for my project, but Carter has: F.K.3.42 = Fuhrpark-Kolonne 3 (Waffe) 42 V.243 = Versuchs Abteilung(?) (Waffe) 243 (alternatively Versuchs Kompagine) Williams adds: R.D.304 = Rekruten Depot (Waffe) 304 22.E.A.4.141. = Eisenbahn Abteilung (Bataillon) 4 (Waffe) 141 2.E.B.J.R.25. = 2 Infanterie Regiment Ersatz Bataillon (Waffe) 25 2.L.78. = 2 Luftschiffer Bataillon (other possibilities!) (Waffe) 78 3.MGM.2. = ? II 13.1.88. = ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 July , 2014 Well, I got the last two of my EB 3's done, and a barely visible and unidentifiable fraktur on one and ground off on the other by somebody 'cleaning the bayonet from rust' Even more annoying... One of these two had the barely visible remains of a Unit mark on the crossguard... Far too worn down (or ground down when in Turkish use?) to see what it was but a 2 and a J and something are visible... In theory an X-ray and/or CAT scan might reveal what it is and so I will have to ask around. Now, for those visitors who may have peeked in and not known what this is all about. The Ersatz bayonets were non arsenal- or private company-made ones produced in extremis between 1915-1917, to free up these arsenals and companies for rifle- making etc.. The fraktur marks are the marks of the inspectors who certified the bayonet for military use. No work has been done on these yet, but it seems that certain bayonet makers had their own inspector (e.g., a crowned Z found on the EB 47 seems to have been the mark of an inspector assigned to certifying Koeller-Klaas products: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208178&hl=%2Btrench+%2Bknife#entry2052745). However, there is no solid information regarding who the Erstaz bayonets were made by or where (except for the EB 47's). In theory, by linking (where possible) fraktur marks on these Erstaz jobs with those found on regular bayonets made by known makers, then we can get some idea of where the ersatz jobs were made, working on the assumption that one inspector per-manufacturing area. So, in the end, just another brick in the wall (hopefully!) - but that is what research is all about! Julian PS: Of course, a study and register of unit-marked EB 3's will also be useful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 27 July , 2014 Share Posted 27 July , 2014 Where do you pick your bayonets up, are they available in numbers locally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 July , 2014 These EB 3's and the EB 7's and to a lesser extent the EB 47's are what tend to turn up here, although I do have an EB 4 or two and an EB 5 and a couple of others... I am (obviously!) working my way through catalouging these things, some of which have been hanging around now for three years... Carter implied that the EB3-14 or so series was the most common of the Erstaz series (narrow fuller and fuller-less types within that range being less frequently found), and certainly I have seen more EB 3's than anything else here - I usually buy them when I see them! There is that obvious problem which we will never resolve: just what was sent from Germany bayonet-wise to Turkey during WW1? And what did Turkey get from Greater Europe after WW1? At the market and on-line here I do see a lots of Waffenfabrik 98/05's W/17, and rarely anything else of the regular jobs, and a number of EB 3's, which could indicate supply patterns. But there again I also see Swedish bayonets for sale here, and the Turks never (to my knowledge) used Swedish Mausers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2014 And here is one more, a regular EB 3, with what looks to be a 'G' fraktur mark on the spine only 302 01A.jpg Whoops a daisy... This one is an EB 4... just like an EB 3 but with narrow fullers... The 'G' fraktur mark but in a slightly different form is also found with those Henkel-Anker 98/05's - See http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=213996#entry2127133. On which note, MH, do you have a clearer photograph of the fraktur mark on your Anker bayonet? And IF there is a crowned pommel mark, then what is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2014 For the convenience of others, this is a copy of the relevant part on fraktur letters from Carter vol IV... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2014 Where do you pick your bayonets up, are they available in numbers locally? I thought I had replied to this but clearly not! Sorry! All my finds are from the local monthly 'Antika Pazari', with a few from the local on-line auction site. The Ersatz 3+ series and Waffenfabrik 98/05's are by far the most common German WW1 bayonets here. The (relative) glut of these here and what I saw on earlier travels in Syria makes me think that after late 1916/early 1917, when German arsenals and bayonet makers started to catch up on bayonet making (and Ersatz stopped being produced), Germany sent loads of surplus Ersatz to Turkey along with stocks of newly-made Waffenfabrik 98/05's. Generally speaking I see about one a month of each type - and always in ropey condition 90% of the time... But, there again, unlike some collectors (even if through necessity!), I do like the hard-beaten and well-worn condition of things that have been seriously used and not well-cared for (although I will confess that sometimes I do wish that they had not been so badly used!) JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 28 July , 2014 Share Posted 28 July , 2014 I have one of those ersatz blades and the flat of the ricasso has a tiny anchor on it, nothing else from memory but will try to have a look later, any thoughts on the anchor ? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2014 I have one of those ersatz blades and the flat of the ricasso has a tiny anchor on it, nothing else from memory but will try to have a look later, any thoughts on the anchor ? khaki Sounds like you might have the 'Z' mark found on some trench knives and EB 47 bayonets - check with: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208178&hl=%2Btrench+%2Bkni#entry2052745 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 29 July , 2014 Share Posted 29 July , 2014 Greetings Trajan, Here’s my example for your study. Blade measures 312mm and no visible markings on either ricasso. I assume the numbers on the crossguard are unit's markings 2.299. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2014 Thanks Lance, but that fraktur will need a bit more of a study than I can do right now! Very nice piece, though. Trajan PS: I like that watermark - looks like one is an 'Turked' EB 47/48! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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