pooter Posted 22 October , 2004 Share Posted 22 October , 2004 Does anyone recognise the rank of this soldier please? Plus does it look post war and can the regiment/medal ribbons be ascertained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 22 October , 2004 Share Posted 22 October , 2004 The badge indicates WO2, but the Sam Browne indicates WO1! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 22 October , 2004 Share Posted 22 October , 2004 My husband's grandfather was supposed to be a WO2 but wore a Sam Brown ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 22 October , 2004 Share Posted 22 October , 2004 Hi, the photo appears to have been taken after the war. The medal ribbons appear to be those of the 1914/15 (or 1914) star, British War Medal, Victory Medal and a Long Service and good conduct medal. Hope this helps Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 22 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2004 Thank you for the replies. These are very helpful in putting together a picture of my wife's great grandfather who we only know from his photos and some letters dated September and October 1915. We think he was in the Scots Guards and in one of his letters dated the 4th October 1915 he talks of "losing their General and his Aide de Camp the other day and it being felt by the Division." I think this could be Major General Thesiger who was killed with two memebers of his staff by a shell in late September 1915 at Loos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutley Posted 22 October , 2004 Share Posted 22 October , 2004 I am unsure when the laurel wreath around the crown came into use but I am assuming that it was after the war, as I have a photo of the Sgts Mess of the 24th (2nd Sportsmans) Bn R. Fus showing all the WO's wearing a plain crown. The difference between the two badges would then indicate if the wearer was a Company or Squadron Sgt Major if it was a plain crown and a specialist WO2 if it has a laurel leaf around the crown. Specialist WO2's include appointments like the Regimental Quartermaster Sgt (RQMS). Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Maclean Posted 22 October , 2004 Share Posted 22 October , 2004 The best chance for an identification lies in the buttons as these appear to be Regimental pattern rather than GS. Any chance of a scan zooming in on one of these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 23 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2004 I have had a go at just enlarging the buttons but unfortunately the shine on them makes deciphering the image impossible. Thanks again for all replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 23 October , 2004 Share Posted 23 October , 2004 Mmmmmm....... Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 23 October , 2004 Share Posted 23 October , 2004 Still Mmmmmm.... Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutley Posted 23 October , 2004 Share Posted 23 October , 2004 I dont think that the photo is of a Scots Guards WO as I believe that they wear their buttons in groups of threes. I think this is something to do with the seniority of the Guards Battallions, Grenadiers being the most senior and wearing single buttons, Coldstreams the second most senior, buttons in pairs and the Scots the third most senior, buttons worn in threes. Perhaps a Guards expert can confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Maclean Posted 23 October , 2004 Share Posted 23 October , 2004 Thanks Phil, I was hoping for an enlargement from the original photo. I don't think it's Guards anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 What's his name? Have you tried the Medal Index Cards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 24 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2004 Despite knowing his grandson and we only have his surname - Stevenson. I am presently awaiting from the GRO a copy of his daughter's birth certificate which hopefully will show his full name. I have looked at the medals index but there are too many Stevensons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 This photo from a previous thread shows the Guards RSM wearing a Sam Browne belt, but the RQMS, wearing the wreathed crown, not wearing the Sam Browne. Not sure where that puts our man! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 This photo from a previous thread shows the Guards RSM wearing a Sam Browne belt, but the RQMS, wearing the wreathed crown, not wearing the Sam Browne. Not sure where that puts our man! Phil B The Adjutant and RSM are usually the only ones who wear the Sam Browne. Acting RSM perhaps? Or maybe just a prop for the photo? Hopefully we will soon know his full name. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 But while we're waiting.......How did you come up with Thesinger and the 9th Division? The Division was Scottish but didn't have a battalion of the Scots Guards. They did have just about every other Scottish regiment represented. Are there any notations on the lettters that may give us a clue? Such as addresses etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 These are the only Warrant Officers with the surname Stevenson and attached to Scottish Regiments from the MIC's. 5636 WO2 William Stevenson - Royal Scots Fusiliers 9834 A/WO1 Peter Stevenson - Kings Own Scottish Borderers 330206 WO2 John R Stevenson - Royal Scots 19070 WO2 James Stevenson - Highland Light Infantry Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 In a book which I have is an illustration of a crown enclosed in a laurel wreath titled Regimental Sergeant Major or Conductor of Ordnance. The rank of Sergeant Major was not officially established until 1797. In 1802 it was laid down that the Sergeant major should wear, points down four chevrons of silver lac e edged with blue. Later a crown was added to the four bars and this was still being worn by some regiments as late as 1915. Eventually the magnificent badge of the Royal Arms that thjey wear today was introduced. Regimental Sergeant Majors of the Guards had always worn this superimposed on their stripes. To this day the RSM of the Guards is always The Sergeant Major. The term Warrant Officer came in with the great reoranisation of the army in 1881 when Sergeant Majors and Band Masters became Warrant Officers, so called because they received a Royal Warrant just as officers received a Commisioning Parchment. At the outbreak of war there were over 20 Senior NCO appointments ranking as Regimental Sergeant Majors, Conductors in the Army Ordnance Department and Master Gunners in the Royal Regiment of Artillery to name just three. The Army Order 70 of 1915 divided them into two classes, Warrant Officer Class I and II. The latter included Company Sergeant Majors of tne Infantry, Battery Sergeant Majors of the Artillery and Troop Sergeant Majors of the Cavalry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 24 October , 2004 Share Posted 24 October , 2004 His Sam Browne belt doesn`t look all that well polished, but he is wearing it with an officer-style jacket. Did WO2s wear this type of jacket? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 24 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2004 In reply to Blackblue my wife's great grandfather was obviously (unfortunately) a very conscientious soldier as his letters to his two daughters told us nothing of where he was in action and had no address on them. They are dated as follows:- 3rd September 1915, 4th October 1915 where he mentions the loss of their General and his ADC "a few days ago" he also says that "they must be brave and take everything that comes in good part, and just think that your dad is no Slacker but out at the front doing his little bit." The third one is dated the 6th November 1915 where again he doesn't tell them where he is but "they had a march to the trenches almost knee deep in water and mud and on arriving have to work day and night to keep the trenches as dry as possible." His grandson thinks he was in the Scots Guards and using a list of Generals killed in action and the dates I came up with Thesiger who was killed by a shell with at least one or two members of his staff when he was in the area of the Hohenzollern Redoubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 25 October , 2004 Share Posted 25 October , 2004 This is a CSM wearing a Sam Browne. Confusing, isn`t it? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 26 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2004 I now have his name - Thomas Stevenson. On the 1st May 1903 he is described as a "Lance Sergeant 1st Scots Guards" The family lived in Cromwell Road, Caterham which is no doubt near the barracks there. Will 1st refer to 1st Battalion? Excuse my ignorance but my side of the family are all merchant navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 October , 2004 Share Posted 27 October , 2004 1st does mean 1st Battalion. If he was with the Scots Guards in 1903 there was unfortunately no guarantee he was with them during the war. He may have discharged before the war and may even have started the war as a Pte or Sergeant. It does appear he was a WOII at the end of the war though. Within the MIC's there are a few possibilites but nothing appears glaring. His MIC may not be listed with the rank he finished the war with as for the 1914 and 1914/15 star (as far as I understand) the rank listed is usually the rank he had at the time he became eligible for the medal...being the date he entered a theatre of war. There are 198 Thomas Stevensons listed. Of these there are a few at or over the rank of Sergeant but nothing for the Scots Guards. There is one Warrant Officer only - SR/79 Warrant Officer Class 2 Thomas Stevenson of the East kent Regiment later 42741 of the East Surrey Regiment. There are a number of Sergeants and Acting Sergeants with various Scottish regiments including: 25478 Sgt - Kings Own Scottish Borderers S/161191 & S/3813 Sgt - Seaforth Highlanders & 1/4215 Sgt - Training Reserve S/16466 A/Sgt - Gordon Highlanders & 1420 A/Sgt Highland Light Infantry Then again he may have served with another regiment or Corps altogether. I also tried 'Stephenson' but there is nothing glaring there either. Perhaps there some way you can trace him via the award of the LSGC medal? I believe there are rolls at the PRO? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownag Posted 27 October , 2004 Share Posted 27 October , 2004 There are a number of Sergeants and Acting Sergeants with various Scottish regiments including: 25478 Sgt - Kings Own Scottish Borderers S/161191 & S/3813 Sgt - Seaforth Highlanders & 1/4215 Sgt - Training Reserve S/16466 A/Sgt - Gordon Highlanders & 1420 A/Sgt Highland Light Infantry The numbers prefixed S/ would mean the Stevensons were in a Service Bn (although the S stands for Scottish rather than Service I think) which would fit in with the 9th Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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