trajan Posted 17 July , 2014 Share Posted 17 July , 2014 I have mentioned on another thread (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=213998#entry2117897) a research project I have initiated, the non-destructive analysis of a selection of German Ersatz bayonets to see how the quality of their blades compares with that of arsenal-made ones. The programme will actually start in August, but as preliminary it was necessary to get the blades of my ersatz collection somewhat tarted up (i.e., cleaned of corrosion and patina ). Now, reducing active corrosion is one thing I approve one, but the cleaning of corrosion products and patina is something that I have generally avoided with my bayonets - I LIKE that well-worn look! But the relevant treatment of the first one I have dealt with has already revealed a surprise…. This particular bayonet is something that is almost but not quite an EB 6, as shown by Carter in his original Erstaz book (I don’t yet have his German bayonets volume III – anyone want to gift me a copy???!!! ). This is a double crossguard one with a double-muzzle-ring, and an ogival point, made using a requisitioned Belgian Mle 89 Garde Civique blade. He notes that the blade of his type-example was “not of the type made by ‘Bayard’ (…Herstal-lèz-Liége) the fullers of which were 215 mm long” (the squared-off fullers on his EB6 type-example are 22.4 cm). He gives the blade length as 29.8 cm. Williams adds that “examples of the Belgian Mle 89 issued to the Garde Civique are rare and it is possible that the use of these blades for EB 6 is the reason for this.” He shows two (one a variant cut-down crossguard) with blade lengths of 30.7 cm and 30. 0 cm., that both seem to be made with Belgian Mle 89 Garde Civique blades, with long squared-off fullers My surprise was that my particular ‘EB 6’, is quite different from the type-examples. It fits in most respects except that it was made using a blade from something else altogether, and not a regular Mle 95 Garde Civile one. The fullers are shorter (at 20.1 mm) and elliptically-ended, and the ricasso has the remains of a crowned B. According to this web-site - http://www.muetstege.com/inspectionmarkings.htm this mark is associated with L. Brossois, less likely his relative E.B. Brossois, two Belgian blade makers blade inspectors who moved around a bit … I haven’t been able to find out much more on them or what bayonets they made, and so all help gratefully welcomed. But either way, it’s a new sub-type! An EB6A??? That aside, the spine does have a nice clear fraktur mark – a crowned Q. (Of course the camera battery went 'Aaaaaagh' just as I was about to load the photographs, but I'll post this now as it might get a response,and post the photographs later) Trajan PS: JScott, tony mstd, and other bayonet wallahs, sorry for absences, and I’ll catch up on other bayonet things next month when summer school has ended! EDIT: corrected blade makers to blade inspectors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2014 Finally, photographs... Trajan PS: the 'dark reddish' stain in the middle is my shadow...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 18 July , 2014 Share Posted 18 July , 2014 The finish on the blade of your bayonet appears to be similar to that found on the ordinary all steel variants. You don't mention the blade length - could this simply have been a re-profiled point following damage? - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2014 Hi SW, It is a regular blade length - with tape measure it's 29.8-30 cm., so not re-pointed. In any case that crowned B on the ricasso shows that it is a re-used blade... What is worrying me now is what other surprises might lurk among the other uncleaned EB's that I have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 18 July , 2014 Share Posted 18 July , 2014 I'm no bayonet expert but I have picked quite a few ersatz up and looked at them (not my cup of tea), this might be a daft question but blades were reused, weren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 July , 2014 I'm no bayonet expert but I have picked quite a few ersatz up and looked at them (not my cup of tea), this might be a daft question but blades were reused, weren't they? No such thing as a daft question! Although I haven't done a thorough analysis, only two of the Ersatz knife-bayonet types seem to have been made using requisitioned blades, the EB 06 certainly and the EB 45 possibly. However, there are a whole lot of other Ersatz-types that made use of yataghan and even triangular socket blades! BTW, these EB's are not exactly my cup of tea either , but I can hardly miss them as they are remarkably common over here, second in numbers I have seen for sale only to the various late late 19th century Turkish bayonets. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 July , 2014 As is often the case using the internet on bayonet things, one goes around in circles while trying to follow up something, and usually no references to sources of information... I followed up some Dutch sites and it seems that my crowned B mark using a 'print-style' 'B' is for E.B. Brossois. The web-site I mentioned in the OP wasn't clear on this, but this is what it (http://www.muetstege.com/inspectionmarkings.htm) has to say about him: "It is unknown when he got employed but he has worked as a inspector at least since 1885. Assisted L. Brossois on several occasions such as Maastricht in 1889 and in 1890 in Luik/Liege (Belgium) to control the production of 100 'Mareschaussee-Carbines' and 'Cavalry-Carbines' by Nagant. In January 1894 he went to Solingen (Germany) and on 28-7-1899 to Steyr (Austria) to inspect the second shipment of M.95 weapons. In 1907 he requests the Dutch nationality. Went to Alex Coppel (Germany) in 1913 to inspect Klewangs and scabbards and did the same at Eickhorn (Germany) in 1913/14 together with inspector Wiersma (crown-Z)." (A klewang, as we all know [ ] is the term for bladed weapons such as cutlasses and machettes made for the Indonesian market...!!!) Thing is, though, I haven't yet been able to find a Belgian or Dutch bayonet with elliptical-ended fullers like this. I checked the 'Blanke wappen' section of http://www.abl1914.be/inhoud.htm, and those of the Belgian 1889 carbine (http://www.abl1914.be/YataganKarabijn1889/YataganKarabijn1889.htm) are similar but this blade is certainly not a cut down version of one of those sword bayonets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 20 July , 2014 Share Posted 20 July , 2014 Not my cup of tea either, but I do have a couple of all steel with much of their original paint. One, an EB47 has a blade length of 309 mm, the other an EB3 has a blade length of 315 mm. Both have very fine tapered points. So if your bayonet is 30 cm then there is room for the fine tip to have been broken off and re-shaped. If this was done during the war it would not be apparent but would explain the comparatively broad point. I can't make out the crowned 'B' so cannot comment on it, but if it was a re-used blade the grinding is uncommonly coarse, and the fullers are very narrow.. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2014 Thanks for comments, SW. Yes, those EB 3's and 47's do have fine tapered points - however, the ogival blade tip of the EB 6 is a very distinctive one... Incidentally, SW, on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208178 you mentioned that you "have another all steel bayonet in similar condition which has the Inspection mark on the 'spine' and another on the flat of the ricasso but the gothic letters differ, so two inspections?" - did you sort that one out? I'll make a guess - it's on the EB 3? Trajan PS: And here is a better view of the crowned 'B'... Sometimes it is easier to use the old 'Paint' system to get these things more viewable! That aside, I have just been working on another EB of mine and that also seems to have a Belgian blade-inspectors mark on the ricasso, but it looks more like an 'N' or an 'M' - I'll post when it becomes clearer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 21 July , 2014 Share Posted 21 July , 2014 Yes, EB 6 does have a broad spear point as one would expect if it was using a Belgian Garde Civique blade; however we were discussing the one you posted. It has very narrow fullers and shows grinding marks unlike the polished finish of EB 6. The crowned 'B' is likely an acceptance mark but that doesn't mean the blade is not a standard all-steel bayonet blade that has been re-pointed. Yes, your deduction is correct; my 'other' all steel is the EB 3 in the distinctive scabbard made by F.A. Gobel, nothing special except it retains about 30% of it's original paint and the badly ground fullers start at different distances from the hilt and are of different lengths. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 23 July , 2014 Share Posted 23 July , 2014 This is the EB 3 all-steel bayonet with the very distinctive FAG scabbard. The blade length is 315 mm. And yes the ricasso and the back of the blade both possess different inspection marks. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2014 Hi SW - been off in Istanbul for a project, hence delay in replying! The kids are away for holidays and so my first chance to just put all my six EB 3's together including this possible EB6'A' and compare them and I have to agree with you. There are slight difference in blade and fuller lengths and widths, etc., but the crowned B example does generally fit in with these overall dimensions, and so yes, shortened, and not an EB 6'A'. On the other hand, although I have also picked up on a few more ricasso-marked examples, including one of my own EB 3's, these are all the regular Gothic style variety, and so my regular-stylecrowned B is still a bit odd... I haven't cleaned my other ones enough yet to see what their spine markings are except one that appears to be a crowned M - and that is the one with the ricasso with what looks like a crowned M! That's a very nice example of an EB 3 that you have there! With traces of paint only where the frog was! I have just the one Type II FAG scabbard but the back is so eroded that all one can see is the upper line of the oval mark... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2014 The kids are away for holidays and so my first chance to just put all my six EB 3's together including this possible EB6'A' and compare them and I have to agree with you.... Forgot to add that my dear wife is also away and so the balcony table is MINE! Which has allowed me to get down to serious work on my EB 3's, for which I will open a new thread, but on this one that I started with, here's a photograph of it with two of its buddies, and note that the ricasso is significantly longer than for a regular EB 3. So, what with that crowned but non Italic 'B', I think for the time being that it is pretty certainly a reused blade, with the 'B' quite probably being an E.B. Brossois inspection mark. I forgot to count this one when I said I only possessed two all-steel bayonets - I tend to think of it as a trench-knife. ... That sister that gave you this sounds a lass! And that is seriously excellent example of a fixable trench-knife Carter EB 01 (which you well know but others may not know that) - and complete with a troddel, so also fixable to some unit/company or other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2014 Just spotted this one with a 'B' mark on the ricasso and a blurred 'fraktur', and a post-1928 Turkish serial number... See: http://www.collectorssource.com/german-wwi-ersatz-bayonet.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 30 December , 2014 Share Posted 30 December , 2014 Aggh! One of my posts is missing! I'll repeat it. Basically I said that the troddel doesn't help us identify the unit unfortunately. only that it belonged to the 8th Komp in the 2nd Battn of an unknown Regiment. The 4th RF had a long and busy war and William Holbrook was with them throughout, so locations don't help. -SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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