Noyes16 Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 I own an SMLE MkIII* and a P14 and am now looking for a Long Lee Enfield rifle to add to my collection. I want one of the type used by British soldiers during the First World War but there seem to be quite a few different patterns. I've come across several examples classed as "volunteer" or "overseas service" rifles but have no idea if these would have been of the same pattern as those used by the British army in the early years of the war. Apart from making sure it's charger loading I don't really have any idea what I'm looking for. Also, what bayonet would I need, 1888 or 1903 pattern? As always, any advice would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Volunteer would normally infer a private purchased rifle made for the civilian market, that has not been supplied by the Government, and would have no stamps indicating service history. I have one, it’s a Parker regulated pre WW1 target rifle to full military spec, and shoots like a dream, although it is non-charger loading. Overseas service would mean used by one of the nations of the Empire, and may vary in condition from drop dead gorgeous to fence post! The 1888 pattern bayonet is the one you want, the 1903 pattern fits the SMLE. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 I think "volunteer" is rather a misnomer -- private purchase is (as Gareth says) or Commercial Conract is probably more likely. Some of these do have military markings ( I have one that was taken into NZ service and has lots of stamps) but the majority do not. The wrist is usually without the cypher, date and model usually stamped with the manufacturer name (BSA Co for example) They type you probably want is a CLLE MkI/MkI* The MkI was a conversion of earlier rifles to Charger Loading (by adding a charger bridge) The MkI* is more common and shows more on early war photos. This was approved in July 1908, the most obvious external difference (although there are others) is that the MkI* has wings protecting the foresight. There is also an India Pattern CLLE (MkII IP) Some photos of MLEs (non charger loading) in wartime use do show up although these are mostly very early war and mostly in the UK with Service Battalions. CLLEs served in large numbers on the Western front up to late 1915/early 1916. Most appear to have disappeared from the Western Front before the Somme. As Gareth notes - the Pattern 1888 is what you want for these. I am not sure about the UK market but in the US, shootable MLEs/ CLLEs command a very significant premium over SMLEs or Pattern 14s. They are relatively scarce and increasingly pricey. I am still looking for a CLLE I can afford. I have a II IP which is towards the "fencepost" end of things Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Sadly the demand for deactivated rifles to overcome our firearms regulations means you can often get more for a deact then you will for a live firer, The collectors of deacts want quality as well, so some very nice examples get converted to 'display only'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Love this disdain for deacts... not everyone has time, money or the facilities to poccess/shoot live firearms but wish to add them to compete their collections of WW1/WW2/ boer war etc bayonets & associated items. As far as I am concerned its good that these weapons can be displayed/handled by others inc the younger generations, helps them to understand/appreciate the history behind them & hopefully continue/contribute to the work that you chaps have started on this fine & very informative forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Disdain? I have several Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Share them my friend, I for 1 would love to hear your views on the matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Oh dear I have failed to get my point across, I have several deacts, and hope to get another tomorrow, a de-Weedon'd P14 if my mate remembers to bring it with him. Although I do hate to see nice bits of machinery lying idle. Can't stop - late for Model Railway Club time and trains wait for no man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Sorry mate, was too tired to read your prior post correctly. Just drove down from campbeltown after a 12 hour shift, so been awake almost 24 hours. I got the enfield bug many years ago firing No4s & enfield revolver at Whitburn during my time in ACF & would dearly love to shoot (& even better own live versions again) them again (maybe when I retire & kids can fend for themselves). Have a great weekend, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17107BM Posted 11 July , 2014 Share Posted 11 July , 2014 Hello all. I have two Enfields which are a joy to shoot. SMLE & No,4 Mk 1 1942. Both were un- issued Rifles, so brand new and were not willing to cycle and shoot untill at least a good few rounds went through them. There ok now, and a change of front sight blades has got them spot on. +15 on the SMLE and +45 on the No4. Reload my own and keep each catridge for each. I wish i had got into this sooner.But it never to late.. Cheers all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 12 July , 2014 Share Posted 12 July , 2014 Deacts don't detract from the history of the rifle as such but does detract from the history of its use & the reasons why, deactivating a historical rifle is history forgotten which in turn can/will result in history being repeated as history shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 13 July , 2014 Share Posted 13 July , 2014 Hi Noyes16, I also wanted a Long Lee, and purchased one a few weeks ago. I had made a bit of a checklist: a piece of history that could have served in both the Boer War and World War 1, therefore WD marked, preferably regimentally marked, a reasonable shooter, matching bolt. OK if it hadthe bumps and knocks of service. I managed to tick all the boxes apart from the matching bolt. Shooting is OK I think, but it hates boat tailed bullets. Luckily had a box of HXP to try, which seemed to make a tremendous difference. So, it needs flat base bullets. It is an 1897 LE Mark I, converted to CLLE Mk I* in 1908. It is marked to the Navy in 1909, and then to the 4th Naval Battalion - I think, 4 N. The butt has RWF to the Royal Welch Fusiliers, assuming the wood is original to the rifle and not swapped in 1908. It is original LE Mark I wood with the cleaning rod groove. I have become very fond of it. Have just taken some pictures if you are interested. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Piccies. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 That is an excellent looking example. Dead envious. Unit stamping on the butt is quite unusual in my experience. Here is my "fencepost" India Pattern CLLC Note non adjustable foresight (without protectors and rearsight of MLE pattern without large adjusting "wheels") Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noyes16 Posted 15 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Nice pics gents. Tony, do you mind me asking how much you paid for your example? The prices seem to vary hugely between £600 to £1200. I'd obviously like to get one closer to the former price but it must have a good military history. Quite a few I've looked at lack the WD stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Hi Noyes16, Mine was £770. Dealers ask more for very clean unknocked examples, but then again these are less likely to have seen military service. I looked at a few on the same day at Bisley (the Phoenix in May) and some seemed over-priced to me. Many were the BSA ones without the Royal Cypher etc. Actually I think there has been a significant price rise in the last year or so. Are you looking for a Live one or a de-act? If the latter try calling Michael Noble and see what he has, the ones he has left have poor bores: http://www.mjnoble.co.uk/catalogue.asp Good luck with your search! Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smellieguy Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 Hi there, new member here, ran across this thread. I'm in Georgia, and I collect historic military firearms, particularly anything from the Great War. Love to shoot them all, best way I can think of to really participate in history. I've always wondered, what has to be done to deact a firearm in the UK? Are there modifications that can be readily seen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 If you look at this document and scroll down to Schedule 4 p12 you can see the general legal description as of 2010 - I am not sure if it has changed since then. The modifications cannot be generally seen externally. There may be more up to date or clearer specifications but this was the best I could find to hand.(you can then look down to pg 32/33 for bolt action rifles such as the MLE /CLLE) Chis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 5 August , 2014 Share Posted 5 August , 2014 I got the enfield bug many years ago firing No4s & enfield revolver at Whitburn during my time in ACF & would dearly love to shoot (& even better own live versions again) them again (maybe when I retire & kids can fend for themselves). I'm afraid that the days when an average Joe could own and fire a live revolver are over. (Thank John Major for that!) Under Section 58 of the Firearms Act, one can own some pistols and revolver for which "ammunition is not readily available" but they may not be fired. Under 7(1) of the same Act, it is possible to own live pre-1919 pistols and revolvers such as .455 Webleys but no ammo may be kept nor the guns fired and even in this case many Great War pistols and revolvers are not allowed e.g. Luger, M1911, etc. It IS possible to own live Historic pistols and revolvers under Section 7(3) which may be fired but this course of action is both difficult and expensive. Having said that it is not actually that difficult to own and shoot live Lee-Enfield rifles. You just need to supply a good reason e.g. Collecting and/or Target Shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smleenfield Posted 14 August , 2014 Share Posted 14 August , 2014 (edited) The Long Lee's are my favorite series of rifles in my Enfield collection. Some of my better examples are these. Edited 27 May , 2016 by smleenfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 14 August , 2014 Share Posted 14 August , 2014 Smleenfield, an interesting Lee Metford. Was it officially modified? Appears to have both Lee Metford Mk.I and Lee Enfield characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smleenfield Posted 14 August , 2014 Share Posted 14 August , 2014 Smleenfield, an interesting Lee Metford. Was it officially modified? Appears to have both Lee Metford Mk.I and Lee Enfield characteristics. It is still in the 8 round inline magazine and Metford rifling configuration. The bolt was up graded in the past and is numbered to the rifle. The stock disk has the letters V.Y.W.A which the only thing I can find is it may mean the Volunteer Yeomanry Western Australia. There are some other things that indicate this came from down under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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