Where exactly was the 'Zwarteleen Salient'?

[Guest Kerry9]

Dear All,

I'm glad to be back after a 10 year absence - no thanks to HERRICK for this

Next May I hope to source a complete repro WW1 private's uniform plus webbing, helmet and deac .303 or replica, (suggestions as to who makes this lot welcomed) then retrace my great uncle Albert Lamb's last steps with 2 Bn KOYLI from Le Havre to the Zwarteleen Salient where he was posted missing on the disastrous attempt to occupy trenches 39, 40 and others of the Zwarteleen Salient on 5/6 May 1914, which was somewhere to the immediate NW of Hill 60 - but I don't know where exactly - can anyone help with a location of these trenches?

The 5/6 May attack is shown on a schematic map on page 67 of Nigel Cave's 2004 edition of 'Hill 60' in the Pen & Sword Battleground Europe series - but I can't identify a 'salient' that gave its name to the 'Zwarteleen Salient'.

I intend to set off then follow 2 Bn KOYLI's movements and locations which I have researched, from 22 Apr to 5 May, finishing up in the by then hopefully identified correct place where Albert fell (give or take a few hundred square yards), on 6 May 2015, 100 years to the day of his being posted as missing. Albert's name is on Panel 47 of the Menen Gate. I then hope to give the exhortation that evening at the Last Post ceremony still in WW1 repro uniform, if Jacky Platteeuw affords me the honour.

All this will also help raise a few shillings for Combat Stress, the charity I support.

Any advice re sourcing of WW1 repro kit and the exact location of the Zwarteleen Salient meanwhile, would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Kerry

[trajan]

Welcome back!

Try the GWF search engine for Zwarteleen as there is lots here on this - mostly dating back 10 years or so ago though.

Trajan

[Guest]

Using McMaster Maps search

Trench 45 [Zwarteleen Salient] Zillebeke 28NW4 & NE3 I 29 d

Trench 47 [N of Zwarteleen salient] Zillebeke 28NW4 & NE3 I 29 d 8.5

Using the Great War British Trench Map Coordinates Converter enter it as 28.I.29.d.8.5.

The centroid of grid location 28.I.29.d.8.5. is at 50.8257, 2.9357. enter these coordinates (minus full stop at the end) ie 50.8257, 2.9357 into google earth (see attached)

Mike

Kmz Zwarteleen salient.kmz

[EDWARD1]

I have overlaid a NA British Trench Map of Aug 15 onto Skipmans Google earth image and marked the position of the other trenches mentioned.

Eddie

[kerry]

Many thanks for your really helpful replies - very much appreciated. I'm now back thanks to Alan under my original Forum name and membership from 2002.

I've contacted Taff Gillingham at Khaki Devils regarding kit and equipment, but am already realising that the French and Belgian authorities will probably not let me carry out my plan with a replica (not even a deact) .303 SMLE.

I'm hoping to hear from the KOYLI Museum in Doncaster too, so with the informatio kindly provided by Trajan, Mike and Eddie, I should be able to put map to ground and work out where things were. What confuses me is whose salient was it - theirs or ours? The trench repro trench maps show a bulge into our lines from the German side to the NE of Hill 60, whereas the diagram in the Nigel Cave book shows a diffrent orientation of the trenches in question to the diagram above from Eddie. I'll see if I can scan this page and put it up and you'll see what I mean.

Kerry

[Cnock]

Hi,

detail of aerial showing houses of Zwarte Leen with trenches and shell craters prior to 2nd Battle of Ypres (see also post nr.4)

regards,

Cnock

Hi,

detail of aerial showing houses of Zwarte Leen with trenches and shell craters prior to 2nd Battle of Ypres (see also post nr.4)

regards,

Cnock

[mikecharles49]

Intrigued to read these exchanges. Can Lieut-Colonel kindly overlay for me a trench map with Google earth? My grandfather KIA 260917 was with 295 Siege Battery at map ref I.30.a.7.4 to the NE of Zwarteleen (they picked up supplies from there. Very much appreciated if you can help. Thanks, Mike.

[EDWARD1]

Mike

here is the overlay as requested. The trench map is from July 1917. (courtesy the NA British Trench Map CD)

Eddie

[EDWARD1]

PS You should be able to make out a red X just to the right of the words Armagh Wood. The X marks I30a7.4

Eddie

[kerry]

Dear All,

Raising funds for Combat Stress, and using the info kindly provided above, I'll be walking in replica 1914 marching order during May from the Belgian border near Steenvorde, following the route my great uncle took a century ago in May 1915. 20792 Pte Albert Lamb, 2 Bn KOYLI, was posted MIA at the Zwarteleen Salient on the disastrous attack of 0230 on the 7th May.

I will be walking on roads avoiding Poperinghe, overnighting in a barn in Ouderdom used by troops a hundred years before, and will then walk from there to the Zwarteleen Salient and lay a wreath in any area near the Salient not actually built on, hopefully. Still in kit, I'll then walk to the outskirts of Ypres (apparently the Burgermeister won't let anyone in WW1 replica kit enter the town proper), change, shower, then donn Service Dress and lay a wreath at the Last Post ceremony at 2000hrs on the Sunday.

Whilst on my walk I'd be grateful for pointers to vestiges and remains of the conflict in that area that folk might know of, that I can visit. For example, there is (or was?) a building near Vlamertinge on the north side of the Pop to Ypres road, that was a FAP and had a large thin red cross painted on the side of the south-facing wall. I'd also heard of a concrete bridge built by an RE regt that is still there and has the date of construction on it, buuldings and barns with inscriptions on and in them, the huge trench railway station at Busseboom, the huge triangular rail junction south of Ouderdom, and so on. (I'm sure there is no trace nowadays of the railways, buildings or track beds)

Are such points of interest listed anywhere on this Forum, or could anyone help?

I'll be posting up a 'Just Giving' or similar page, and if the moderators don't mind and if it is not against Forum policy, I'd like to post a link to it if that is acceptable to folk?

Many thanks

Kerry

[Tom Lang]

Hello Kerry,

Have you studied enough of the trench maps?

The National Library of Scotland has all the WW1 Trench Maps available online.

You can also view them with zoomable overlays of modern Google or Bing maps.

http://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

Hope this helps.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[bierast]

This sector was defended by Kgl. Sächs. 6. Infanterie-Regiment König Wilhelm II. von Württemberg Nr.105 (IR 105), the only Saxon regiment with the Prussian 30. Infanterie-Division / XV. Armeekorps (this was because the regiment was garrisoned in peacetime at Strassburg as part of the Kingdom of Saxony's federal contribution to the defence of Elsass-Löthringen - it remained with this Prussian division throughout the war).

IR 105 had held Hill 60 (Höhe 60) since 1914 and been subjected to the British attack of 17th April 1915, at the beginning of which the forward platoon of its 2. Kompanie was wiped out by the mine explosion. The Saxons bore the front of the fighting there over the following three weeks, and were still there to face the attack on 7th May in which Pte. Lamb was killed. According to the regimental history:

"...on the morning of 7th May after strong artillery preparation the English again made heavy counterattacks on the recently stormed positions. Despite the commitment of large numbers of troops these attacks were beaten off under the fire of the infantry and the well-placed defensive barrage [Sperrfeuer = lit. 'blocking fire'] of the German artillery, and broke up with very heavy losses for the enemy."

After the British shelling had subsided it was finally possible to relieve IR 105 that morning, for a mere 24 hours out of the line. The map below shows the regimental sector and the company subsectors of its front battalion as on 15th May.

[kerry]

Hi Bierast,

 

may apologies for taking over seven years to respond to this.  Marriage, moving home, contract work and developing my voiceover business got in the way. Really grateful for this German map and your commentary, which has painted the picture from the german side..

 

So, if I understand it correctly, the Zwarteleen Sailent was a British salient protruding into the Saxon positions south (looking at your map) of '1/105' and north of the letters 'eleen' of the word Zwarteleen, is that correct? 

(If so, and when I went across to do my pilgriamge retracing of Pte Lamb's finl journey, I was in completely the wrong place, believing the salient, and trenches 38-41 were in between the numeral '3' and the 'Z' of the word 'Zwarteleen' on your map.)

[Howard]

On 11/02/2015 at 16:37, Tom Lang said:

The National Library of Scotland has all the WW1 Trench Maps available online.

 

That is no longer true by a large margin. Have a look at TrenchMapper. We have 376 georeferenced maps that cover that area.

Howard

[Tom Lang]

6 minutes ago, Howard said:

That is no longer true by a large margin. Have a look at TrenchMapper. We have 376 georeferenced maps that cover that area.

Howard

Thanks Howard.

I have since learned that 'some' of the maps are available at NLS.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[Howard]

15 minutes ago, Tom Lang said:

Thanks Howard.

I have since learned that 'some' of the maps are available at NLS.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

Back in 2015 when you posted that about the NLS it was quite true but things have changed. The 10,500 scans that form the main source of TrenchMapper's current count of 6,257 georeferenced maps were sitting on my hard drive "resting" since being scanned in 2000-2004; some of them were published on the Mapping the Front DVDs. We will not get 10,500 maps as many scans are not even maps but when the current batch is finished by our amazing team of 55+ volunteers, we will exceed 8,000. There is nothing on the net that even remotely approaches these numbers nor the sheer breadth of coverage in terms of British, French and German maps and aerial photographs.

For some reason that I cannot yet understand, there seems to be some reluctance on this forum to adopt TrenchMapper as the first point of reference for maps. It is free to consult and downloads are very cheap, WFA members get two free downloads a month of the full resolution uncropped map, scanned to a full professional standard.

In addition, work is in progress to expand the current large count of searchable trench names, when that is finished it will be by a very large margin, the most comprehensive list of trench and point names in any format.

It has taken a lot of work and effort to put it all together so you will understand why I am keen to promote it!

Howard

 

[Tom Lang]

21 hours ago, Howard said:

Back in 2015 when you posted that about the NLS it was quite true but things have changed. The 10,500 scans that form the main source of TrenchMapper's current count of 6,257 georeferenced maps were sitting on my hard drive "resting" since being scanned in 2000-2004; some of them were published on the Mapping the Front DVDs. We will not get 10,500 maps as many scans are not even maps but when the current batch is finished by our amazing team of 55+ volunteers, we will exceed 8,000. There is nothing on the net that even remotely approaches these numbers nor the sheer breadth of coverage in terms of British, French and German maps and aerial photographs.

For some reason that I cannot yet understand, there seems to be some reluctance on this forum to adopt TrenchMapper as the first point of reference for maps. It is free to consult and downloads are very cheap, WFA members get two free downloads a month of the full resolution uncropped map, scanned to a full professional standard.

In addition, work is in progress to expand the current large count of searchable trench names, when that is finished it will be by a very large margin, the most comprehensive list of trench and point names in any format.

It has taken a lot of work and effort to put it all together so you will understand why I am keen to promote it!

Howard

 

The operative word you use is "cheap".

NLS is "free".

GWF members will always follow the path of least resistance.

Tom.

[Howard]

3 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

The operative word you use is "cheap".

NLS is "free".

GWF members will always follow the path of least resistance.

Tom.

I just had a look again at the NLS site and a download is £10.80. TrenchMapper downloads are £4 although WFA members get two free downloads a month.

Both are free to view.

So, GWF members, get straight down the path of least resistance and use TrenchMapper.

Howard

[Tom Lang]

20 hours ago, Howard said:

I just had a look again at the NLS site and a download is £10.80. TrenchMapper downloads are £4 although WFA members get two free downloads a month.

Both are free to view.

So, GWF members, get straight down the path of least resistance and use TrenchMapper.

Howard

So, again, "free to view", and NLS Maps have been available for many years.

Tom.

[Howard]

51 minutes ago, Tom Lang said:

So, again, "free to view", and NLS Maps have been available for many years.

Tom.

Yes that is true but there is no competition here, I still use all available sources including NLS despite having 1000s of maps on my PC, I was simply trying to tell one an' all that we have 6,200 maps available free to use, georeferenced and that link directly to Street View and a lot of help and knowledge all bundled in TrenchMapper. NLS is still excellent but with a very limited selection of maps compared with TrenchMapper. TNA have a lot of maps but many are not scanned and some are every hard to find. The Bundesarchiv Freiburg have a reasonable number of German maps but those are very hard to find, luckily we have included instructions in TrenchMapper on how to find them but after a while, they will be on TrenchMapper as well. Then there is McMaster, download only but where they had maps not in our collection, we have georeferenced them on TrenchMapper, likewise maps from the Library of Congress, University of Texas, Boston Public Library, Prussia Online and the AWM not to mention the Archives Departementales de la Marne.

I am trying to be helpful, pointing out that the map world has only recently moved on from a few maps on NLS or McMaster. Now there is a very large and increasing number, all free.

Howard

[Tom Lang]

On 06/01/2023 at 15:16, Howard said:

Yes that is true but there is no competition here, I still use all available sources including NLS despite having 1000s of maps on my PC, I was simply trying to tell one an' all that we have 6,200 maps available free to use, georeferenced and that link directly to Street View and a lot of help and knowledge all bundled in TrenchMapper. NLS is still excellent but with a very limited selection of maps compared with TrenchMapper. TNA have a lot of maps but many are not scanned and some are every hard to find. The Bundesarchiv Freiburg have a reasonable number of German maps but those are very hard to find, luckily we have included instructions in TrenchMapper on how to find them but after a while, they will be on TrenchMapper as well. Then there is McMaster, download only but where they had maps not in our collection, we have georeferenced them on TrenchMapper, likewise maps from the Library of Congress, University of Texas, Boston Public Library, Prussia Online and the AWM not to mention the Archives Departementales de la Marne.

I am trying to be helpful, pointing out that the map world has only recently moved on from a few maps on NLS or McMaster. Now there is a very large and increasing number, all free.

Howard

That's very helpful but you make no mention of tMapper: WW1 Mapping or Home | Great War Digital - The home of LinesMan

A map, is a map, is a map, regardless of the source.

Tom.