Could the Great War be fought today?

[Cynthia]

Last night I was watching the first two episodes of "Manor House," a Channel 4 programme being shown on PBS here in the States. It chronicles the daily lives of modern participants who have willingly (!!) undertaken the roles of Edwardian servants or masters.

The first two episodes showed immediately how difficult it was for modern Brits to adapt to listening to their 'betters' and doing what was circumscribed for them. There were many complaints and much grousing, especially from the lower servants.

This got me thinking about that old argument: Could the Great War be fought today, given the attitudes and independence of young people? Comparisons to the recent Iraq War could be made, but I am thinking more of how duty and doing the right thing were so much more prevalent, or seemed to be, in the Great War era.

Rather a moot question, but it did make me wonder, particularly as I watched the two footman and the hall boy trying to adjust to rules and regulations. Trying to imagine them as Kitchener's Men taking orders from an RSM gave me a real start!

Cynthia

[Terry_Reeves]

Interesting point Cynthia. In Britain, evidence from the Falklands conflict and the Gulf war showed that there was a dramatic increase in the number of young men trying to joined the armed forces at a time of conflict, many out of a sense of adventure, trying to escape the hum-drum of civilian life. Many of these young people were not accepted or never followed up initial enquries as they realised the armed forces were looking for a longer term committment. Nevertheless it does strike a chord in respect of 1914 -1915.

In my own experience, many young people adapt well to the rigours of service life. And before anybody asks, I was not a recruiter!

As to the question whether or not could the Great War be fought to today, that is an entirely different matter. Hmm...

Terry Reeves

[ianw]

Cynthia ,

I think wars shape themselves according to the technology available and the mores of the combattants involved. Thus, the Iraq War could only be "successful" to US and British eyes if it were to be finished in weeks with minimal casualties to Coalition troops and "acceptable" losses in Iraqi civilians. Iraqi troops didn't count as long as TV images of large numbers of them dead were not shown. Fortunately the technology allowed the speedy "victory" to be accomplished. By "technology" I mean overwhelmingly superior fire-power as the number one factor supported by the much vaunted precision .

The Great War was similarly shaped by the war technology of the time and deeply ingrained 19th century concepts of duty exhibited by the combattants which led to the fight being continued in the face of the horrendous casualty lists. Therefore, the Great War could certainly not be fought again today.

Our own version of the Great War may consist of the unconstrained use of weapons of mass destruction, the results of which may lead us to look back to 1914-1918 with nostalgic affection ! The current social mores that will allow this to happen will be our current tendency to disengage ,bury our heads in the sand, turn the TV volume up and shut most of the world out of our sad little "consumer idyll".

Please note that I speak with considerable authority having 2 cars, 3 TV's, 3 VCR's etc, etc, etc.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

I think if the Great War was fought today, it would be Britain & the US fighting the French & the Germans

Seriously though, technology has made large strides in the last 90 years and I doubt that you would have the stagnant war of attrition that was the character of trench warfare.

Ian

[CROONAERT]

Seriously though, technology has made large strides in the last 90 years and I doubt that you would have the stagnant war of attrition that was the character of trench warfare.

Ian

Unless of course, you are fighting a war against an extremely evenly matched opponent.Look at the occasional static trench lines a la WW1 that was encountered in Russia during WW2, Korea in the '50's, Indo-China also in the '50's and Yugoslavia in the 90's.

On occasions where advance becomes impossible due to overwhelming defensive firepower, the situation could happen today. Imagine the effect of "tactical" battlefield nuclear weapons on such things as an advancing battle group. Most mechanised machinery of war could be turned into scrap iron following strikes on airbases/armoured depots/etc.Even the nuclear installations themselves could be nullified, leaving a conventional infantry/artillery trench war to ensue.

For these reasons, I firmly believe that a WW1 style war could be fought again, if the correct background conditions ensued.

Dave

[MartinWills]

Several years ago a play toured local schools in Northamptonshire. It portrayed the tale of a young couple. He in the Manchesters and ultimately shot at dawn; she a munitionette. The story was played factually without any slant and the schoolchildren used it as the basis of discussion.

At the end the boys were asked if they would follow a call to arms and fight for their country today. The overwhelming response was, to many people's surprise an overwhelming yes.

[armourersergeant]

Assuming that we take the thread to its basic intent ,that is to say could we take todays society and dump them back ninety years could we cope. I feel the answer is a resounding NO!

I doubt we could servive normal life back then, we have become not necesserily wrongly a nation reliant on invention and comfort to sustain our living day(hark at me using the internet) most of us could not light a fire from sticks let alone sit in mud up to are knees being shelled hour upon hour.

Modern society has taken away our ability to cope with that sort of situation. We have no common resolve, no respect for the things that are right or for those around us. We care on the whole for ourselves but not for the man next to us. We have no respect for things and people or institutions that have the right of our respect. The police are seen as the enemy when they are infact our protectors. It is percieved to be better a mugger than a careworker. This attitude is driven by the society we live in an example being when Princess Diana died we had a day of mourning even the shops shut for half a day,jesus! When the Queen mum died what did we see, the government layed down no form of respect by sanctioning a national holiday for a woman who had given most of her life in the duty of her country. She had after all been a Queen of the realm. In disgust at this i went to london and waited six hours to pass by her coffin,it was the right thing to do. It was Respectful and i was proud to say she was my Queen Mother. With her death went the last figure head of her generation. With her died something we will never get back.

But anyway i digress, the moral fibre and cammaraderie required to knuckle down and fight a protracted war of attrition could not be sustained by this nation anymore, or perhaps we have just wised up, hardship is not all its cracked up to be. Me I believe in duty ,honour,loyalty and respect ,old fashioned values that do not have much following in modern society......This forum excepted.

If i did have to go it would be the Bakers Pals for me, perhaps you guys and galls could get me through it.

PS can you tell i have had a bad day at work, boy thats got a lot of my chest...sorry to rant!

Arm

[Kate Wills]

When the Queen mum died what did we see, the government layed down no form of respect by sanctioning a national holiday for a woman who had given most of her life in the duty of her country. She had after all been a Queen of the realm. In disgust at this i went to london and waited six hours to pass by her coffin,it was the right thing to do. It was Respectful and i was proud to say she was my Queen Mother. With her death went the last figure head of her generation. With her died something we will never get back.

Me I believe in duty ,honour,loyalty and respect ,old fashioned values that do not have much following in modern society......

Arm,

I felt exactly the same way and did exactly the same thing. For me, the Queen Mother's death marked the end of an era. I journeyed to Westminster to pay my respects to her, my grandparents and their generation. Also like you, I'm going to liberate a bee in my bonnet. Why should words like courtesy always be preceded by 'old-fashioned'? Courtesy, loyalty, duty and respect ought never to be deemed out-moded. These are the hallmarks of civilisation. I'm not an ancient fogey, honest...

Back to Cynthia's question:

The problem with these time-warp programmes is that naturally the participants take their modern life-experience with them. There is something in the old adage of what you don't have, you don't miss. I once remarked to my grandmother that her Edwardian childhood in a cottage in greenest Northamptonshire must have been idyllic. 'You try fetching water from a standpipe up the lane on a winter's night!' Indoor plumbing is something I took for granted.

People have always had cause to grumble, but within the accepted norms of the time. 'Lads Army', in which present day youths underwent 50s-style national service presented this predicament very well. A generation used to a much-more libertarian social structure had grave difficulties coping with unfamiliar disciplines.

Our recent experiences of war, as Terry has related, have shown that a sense of patriotism still exists. However, I don't think we could cope with a war that went on for more than a few weeks. The media seems to drive current affairs nowadays, and we would soon tire of a protracted conflict, and switch across to another channel.

[Guest Simon Bull]

Surely this questoin proceeds upon a slightly false premise? Teh reality is that we woudl all have diffutly adapting to historic crcumstances becuase we have grwon up with differnt skills, challenges and mores. To put it in perspectvie, i suspect that the current gernation woudl have diffuty fighting the Wars of the Roses and/or the English Civil War. On the htoerh hand our ancestors who fought in the First World War would find coping iwht the challneges of modern life extremly diffult.

Also rather suprosed to see the link some are amkg with support for royalty and decent moral vlaues. I owudl hope that one can be a republican and a perfectly decent adn proper human being who cars for one's fellow human beings at the same time!

Simon Bull

[Guest Simon Bull]

Sorry - forget to spellcheck my previous contribution before sending it. This proves a point i made in a much earlier thread about how appalling my typing is. Certainly if i had been a clerk in the First World War the quality of my typing would have been likely to lead to some real military disasters.

Simon Bull

[maurice davis]

I for one do not believe that the Great War could be fought to day. People have different values now, than they did in 1914/1918 and like someone said in these historical reinactment programmes the people in them take with them to-days standards and compare then and now. Which just can not be done . I know that some one may take this the wrong way but it is not ment to be putting anybody down but people just did not know anything better, it was the way things were done.

But just as a thought, we now have live coverage of war what if we had it on say the first day of the Somme or at Verdun how many would have joined the army after seeing newsreels of the carnage as it happened?

Maurice Davis

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Kate - You have hit the nail on the head. If a person is not courteous, has no respect for others either them as people or their property, they can very little self respect themselves.

One other thing that no one has mentioned is that today people are confused by what is meant as patriotism. Patriotism is not supporting the England football team and then dropping little in the street! It is about having pride about your country as a whole.

I was lucky to be brought up to have these values, which were further drummed into me when I was wearing a uniform.

Ian

[Kate Wills]

Exactly Ian, and sadly too many people like to confuse patriotism with xenophobia. The two are entirely unrelated, and there is nothing wrong with professing a pride in one country and culture.

[Cynthia]

Having watched the next two chapters in a state of shock (I found out I need a new head gasket in my car to the tune of $900!!) I was longing to go back to the days when I would not have needed a car at all! But I agree that we indeed have lost some of the most important facets of civilisation: courtesy, respect for others and our elders (you can tell I am quickly heading toward being one of those 'elders'!), friendliness, and a willingness to help others. It does exist, but so much of it nowadays seems proscribed under a heading of "Customer Service" rather than genuine caring and attention.

Now I've got that off my chest, I also thought that indeed life was hard then, but as it was pointed out, that is what they knew and probably did not consider it as difficult as we who know of today's standards do. While researching the Starks I saw how Charlie Stark, a carpenter and wheelwright, grew up in very primitive conditions in Devon and had little formal education. He moved to Surrey, bought a new workman's cottage with all the latest mod coms circa 1895, and sent his two boys 3 miles to Caterham to a board school because he believed that their education was not benefitting from the limits of village schooling. Robert became a shop assistant, considered a step up. No doubt the Starks thought they lived in much better times than their parents and grandparents had, as we do looking back. And no doubt people 100 years from now will laugh at how we sat in noxious traffic jams on the M25 and still had to do tons of housework by hand!

Can't wait to see the last two chapters tonight. I really have been sizing up the male cast members to see how they would have fared during the Great War. Quite a bit of spirit anyway!

Cynthia

[Michael]

When I read accounts of battles, from medieval skirmishes to trench warfare, I quite often ask myself "could I do it ?". Quite honestly I'm not sure I could. I'm therefore fascinated by the motivation needed to stand there and fight knowing that you're probably going to get seriously hurt or killed.

The fact that so many answered the call during the Great War must mean that they had a different mindset to us. They weren't all heroes, they were just ordinary guys but they must have all seen some terrible things. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (if there is such a thing) must have been rife

Michael

[Rosemary Clarke]

Quote

'Also rather suprised to see the link some are making with support for royalty and decent moral values. I would hope that one can be a republican and a perfectly decent and proper human being who cares for one's fellow human beings at the same time!'

I entirely agree with Simon on that score; add to that 'athiest'!

That issue aside and related to Martin Wills comments: it was interesting that a recent local news programme, shown just prior to the war, interviewed members of the public on the subject of the morality of taking such action. The only interviewees who expressed the desire to 'go get Saddam' were two sixth form boys.

I also found that surprising and more than a little disquieting.

[Tim Birch]

I think we are already in a new "Great War". The technology and methods have changed, but the war on terrorism is just as much a stalemate as the trenches of 1914/18 were. You have only got to look at the Palastine/Israel situation to see an escalation of entrenched attitudes, the use of horrific weapons (suicide bombers), and the hopeless spiral of retaliation with no glimmer of any solution (breakthrough) to realise that mankind's march towards Armageddon hasn't changed.

On a global basis the problem is compounded when those trying to combat it and with the firepower, yet with a Western view of morality, can't use it to full effect without wiping out "innocent civilians", whilst those who consider themselves to be the oppressed or who have a religious fundamental driving force behind them, have no scruples so far as their own lives and those of their victims are concerned. We are seeing a new wave of patriotism amongst the impressionable young. Just as our grandfathers flocked to the recruiting stations in 1914 for King and Country, so young Arabs clamour to be given the chance to blow themselves up in a jihad.

In effect both sides are in a "no win" situation, and will remain so until some meeting of minds or compromise is achieved. Until such time the world is likely to find itself in a military and economic war of attrition. There will be limited successess by both sides - 9/11; Afganastan and Iraq - just as there were in the Great War, but no overwhelming breakthrough.

I believe the war on terrorism may turn out to be just as much of a stalemate, will last cosiderably longer and eventually may cause more heartbreak and bloodshed than the Great War.

Just like the Great War, victory will eventually come (maybe in a couple of centuries time?) to those with "God (or Allah) on their side".

Tim

[armourersergeant]

In response to the royalty issue can i just put the record straight.

I was not attempting to say that unless you were a royalist you had no values but just to highlight the lack of respect and values set in todays society even in 'higher places'. The queen mother had held a position in our country and had once been a queen of the nation. Ninety years,even forty years ago, her death would never have passed without a showing of due respect for her position.

Wether you are a royalist or a republican we live in a democracy with a monarch as head of state, it is up to the individual to decide the right or wrong of that but surely the government has a duty to lead the way in doing what is the respectful and correct thing to do.

Perhaps i used a bad example to get my point across, if so i apologise.

As to students having opinions on current day issues, i was interested to see all those children leave their classes to protest against the war in Iraq and how wrong it was, but at the same time synically i could not help wonder what they would be getting upto that evening. Respect is a word used by the young nowadays but i think it has a completely differnet angle to it the one i hold dear.

ever synical.

Arm.

[ianw]

Although I disagree with their point of view , I was delighted to see large numbers of school children protesting against the war. It is refreshing to see the young actually caring about anything to that extent. Similarly I smiled when I was going up the Strand and saw a long haired protesting crowd disgorge from the LSE and set off towards Parliament - it brought back fond memories of the 60's and 70's when I too joined many a demo - mostly to get on coaches with girls and drink too much beer !

[CROONAERT]

it was interesting that a recent local news programme, shown just prior to the war, interviewed members of the public on the subject of the morality of taking such action. The only interviewees who expressed the desire to 'go get Saddam' were two sixth form boys.

A rather overlooked fact about the recent conflict is that Army recruiting offices received a higher than average amount of potential recruits during this period. I believe this also happened during "GW1" and the Falklands Campaign.

Maybe this says something about the modern mentality (of male 16-25 year olds)towards war being not that different from those encountered in 1914?

Dave.

[Jock Bruce]

There was an article in the Washington (as in DC, USA) Post a couple of weeks ago, along the lines that in the US the upsurge in numbers applying to join as a result of hostilities was about balanced by the numbers already in the recruiting process who were deciding to defer actually signing up for a few months.

Jock Bruce

[Alan Lines]

Yes, if they had to I honestly believe todays generation could fight the Great War if they were suddenly magiced into the trenches. Whether they would carry on for as long as the originals did given today's values etc. is another question.

Physically I'm sure they would cope, don't forget a lot of the soldiers of the Great War were not used to physical work before they joined up and many others were hardly in A1 condition. Although todays teenagers in my opinion are generally what I would call soft they are at least well nourished and probably stronger. Mentally I don't think they would be as tough though because life if generally easier these days but they would no doubt adapt.

With regard to patriotism, I wonder by 1918 how many from any nation were fighting for patriotic reasons anyway.

P.S Arm don't despair. There are a lot of good teenagers out there.