Can A WW1 Railway Anorak ID These?

[green_acorn]

G'day all,

The AWM has two images of WW1 petrol locomotives, which are running on 2'6" narrow gauge track in Egypt. Can you identify them and give me a reference I can read:

This website says : "........ the 2ft 6ins gauge Port Said (east to) Mahembiya military line built by the British in 1916 as part of the Suez Canal defences. There were 23 of these 0-4-0P 55hp locos built by Hawthorn Leslie B/No. 3107-29 in 1915 as part of the RE "siege packs" and were ROD Nos. 61-83. All of these worked on various 2ft 6ins gauge lines in the Middle East in Egypt / Sinai / Palestine. The Port Said line was exclusively worked by petrol locos, including some by Avonside."

I will post the second image shortly.

Cheers,

Hendo

[green_acorn]

The second image is of an unidentified type, again I would like to learn more, so would appreciate being pointed to a reference work.

Finally there was a third type of petrol locomotive used in the Egyptian area, a Manning Wardle petrol locomotive that was used on the standard gauge track. Does anyone know of any images of these locomotives?

Cheers,

Hendo

[William Shelford]

Both photographs show a 2'6" gauge light railway in Egypt. The first line here was built in early 1916 from Port Said to Mohamedieh (near Romani) in Egypt. Later in 1917 after the Turks had been pushed back into Palestine, the 2'6" (and 60cm) gauge light railway equipment was redeployed nearer the front lines. A 2'6" line being constructed from Deir-el-Balah on the coast towards Shellal, near Gamli, running along the south side of the Wadi Gaza valley.

I am no expert on these campaigns, so possibly someone could enlighten us.?

The first photograph is as you said one of Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0PM (Petrol Mechanical) 2'6" gauge locomotives. Built in1915 and allocated works numbers 3107-29 they were numbered by the ROD 61-83. These had Gardner four-cylinder engines of 55hp at 600 rpm. The transmission was via a disc friction clutch and a three-speed gearbox, giving speeds of 4, 8 and 15 mph. Coupling rods connected the wheels which were worm driven from the gearbox. Weight was 8.75 tons, with 27" diameter wheels and a wheelbase of 5ft.

The second photo is more interesting as it is the first one I have seen showing a front view of the 0-4-0PM locomotives also used on these lines in Egypt build by the Avonside Engine Co. of Bristol. Built in 1915 and allocated works numbers 1703-14, these were numbered by the ROD 31-42. These had Parsons four-cylinder engines of 60hp at 550rpm, and a four speed gearbox giving speeds of 2.5, 5, 10 and 15 mph. Weight was 9 tons 2 cwt., with 24" coupled wheels and a wheelbase of 4ft. Overall dimensions were length 12ft 1.5in, height 8ft 9in, width 5ft 6in.

Manning Wardle did build ten standard gauge 0-4-0PM locomotives for the Ministry of Munitions. None are recorded as going overseas.

Published sources on these light railways and their equipment is sparse, in compiling the above notes, I have consulted the following:

The British Internal Combustion Locomotive 1894-1940 by Brian Webb, published by David and Charles in 1973

Narrow Gauge at War 2 by Keith Taylorson, published by Plateway Press in 1996

Middle East Railways by Hugh Hughes, published by the Continental Railway Circle in 1981 (although this was of very little help, other than confirming works and running numbers).

The choice of 2'6" gauge for these lines is interesting. Following pre-war experiments, 2' 6" was chosen by the military for siege railways, despite the Germans and French choosing 60cm (1ft 11 5/8") gauge, as both counties (especially France) had built a lot of these lines to serve rural areas.

So when light railways were found to be required on the Western Front, the War Office had to adopt 60cm gauge. It was however decided that railways in other theatres would stick to 2' 6". Hence the use of 60cm in France/Belgium, 2'6" gauge in Egypt (with some 60cm diverted from the Western Front), and metre gauge in East Africa, where the lines were built using the Indian Army Military Railway reserve (this was later replaced in 1920 by surplus 60cm equipment). Kenya has metre gauge railways to this day, despite a realisation from the 1920's onwards that 3'6" gauge as used in South Africa would be better.

After the war in the UK, the Army did is best to avoid narrow gauge railways, but those it had were 60 gauge, the Admiralty used 2'6" gauge in armament depots and dockyards (except for these at Gilbralter and Singapore which used metre gauge), while the RAF decided to use 2ft gauge in its armament depots. So much for standardisation!

[green_acorn]

william,

Thank you very much for your very detailed response.

My one comment would be that the 1920 Railway Gazette in their "Special War Transportation Number" reported that an officer in March 1918 made a report to the DGMR of engines in traffic and three (3) Manning-Wardle petrol 0-4-0 tractors were in operation.

Again,

Thank You,

Hendo

[ifanlloyd]

The British forces in Egypt were the first British troops to use properly organized light railways,during the Autumn of 1915 a network of 2ft and 2ft 6in was laid east of the Suez Canal as a defensive measure. The 2ft 6in gauge was confined initially to a twelve and a half mile line from Port Said to Qalaat constructed and operated with equipment the Royal Engineers had ordered in 1914.This comprised 33 four wheeled Manning Wardle 160-80hp petrol locomotives and 350 wagons of standard RE 2ft 6in gauge pattern,all of which had been sent to Alexandria for possible use in the Gallipoli campaign.

The British advance into Palestine late in 1917 rendered these lines useless amd many were dismantled.Some material went to Salonika,but a part was used to construct tactical light railways along the line of the advance.The first of these was built in the summer of 1917 to support operations around Gaza,and comprised a 2ft 6in gauge line 23 kilometres in length from the standard gauge railhead at Deir-el-Balah eastwards towards Wadi Ghazzee.This according to an official source"enabled a large resreve of supplies and ammunition to be placed beforehand well up towards the front line and proved to be of considerable value"

Up to this time all light railway work had been carried out by the ROD but after the rapid British advance after the capture of Gaza,a light railway organization was set up and the 96th Light Railway Operating Company and the 98 th Light Railway Train Crews Company were formed. My Grandfather was in the 98th.

Hope this helps.

[4thGordons]

May I coattail on this thread to ask a related question.

Can anyone give me any information on this locomotive and the location it was operated? I believe it is a 60cm gauge. It appears to have USA stenciled on the side and has a plate on the front numbered 47001

The cab appears to bear the number 512x? (hidden by man - possibly 27? if it is the same number repeated on the valve (?)

The picture is dated Oct 1918 and the place given is Rattentout. The men around it appear to be American and the notes suggest it was used to supply rations to the US 33rd Div.

Thanks in advance

Chris

EDIT

OK I should have checked first - This appears to be a Baldwin 2-6-2T narrow gauge locomotive - apparently 90 or so of which saw service on the Western Front and, at least according to Wiki - this falls within the number block 5001-5195

next question is which units operated them?

Edited 28 May , 2015 by 4thGordons

[green_acorn]

Chris,

They were operated by the US Army Transportation Corps, you can see the US Army abbreviation U.S.A. on the water tank. All the soldiers are American except for the one with arms crossed who appears to be British Empire. The Baldwin 2-6-2 was an improvement of the Baldwin 4-6-0 tank loco design built for the British Army, the 2-6-2 was more stable on the rough 60cm track and less likely to jump the rails.

Cheers,

Hendo

[4thGordons]

Thanks Hendo.

I have been wondering about the chap with his arms crossed. I agree it looks like he might be wearing a 02 Service Dress Jacket (based on collar, although pocket flaps look shaped) rather than American tunic however I have several photos and one written account of US personnel being supplied with British jackets in the absence of sufficient US tunics so I don't know how much can be concluded.

I have found a couple of accounts of US Railway units and am trying to narrow down which one may have been operating here.

Thanks again

Chris

[ifanlloyd]

Chris

Get hold of a copy of Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land by Richard Dunn,published by Benchmark Publications.

One of the best books on the US Army's 60cm railways in France.

[4thGordons]

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll get on that.

Chris

Edit:

Hurrah! Inter-Library Loan to the rescue....should be here by next weds!

Edited 29 May , 2015 by 4thGordons

[Hereford Horseman]

For those in the UK who'd like to learn more about trench railways, the Apedale Valley Railway is running a series of WW1 events following the success of last year's 'Tracks to the Trenches' - the next major events are scheduled for 2016 and 2018:

http://www.ww1-event.org/

HH

[Great War Truck]

Chris

Get hold of a copy of Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land by Richard Dunn,published by Benchmark Publications.

One of the best books on the US Army's 60cm railways in France.

Yes, I would agree. That is an excellent book and the author Richard Dunn is restoring a Nash Quad truck. Can you recommend any books on the operation of standard gauge railways by the US Army. I have the Stoddard book Military Railway Service but that only covers WW1 very briefly.

[green_acorn]

Chris, Would it be Rue-de-Rattentout, Dieue-sur-Meuse, just south of Verdun?

Hendo

[4thGordons]

Yes Hendo, I believe that would be the correct area. The 33rd Div were astride the Meuse at this period, Moving up through Forges and crossing just below Consenvoye.

Chris

[4thGordons]

Just following up:

Some additional details HERE and the history of the 21st Engineers can be found here

This picture is reproduced on p16 of Dunn (credited to the National Archives) The caption reads: In October 1918 the 2nd battalion of the 14th Engineers was ordered to Rattentout to take over from the 12th Engineers. On October 28, 1918 Baldwin #5127 (shop # 47001)posed with her crew. From the appearance of her side tank, the engine made at least one trip "into the ditch".

(I assume this last comment is in reference to the dent in the front edge of the tank)

Confirming what is noted on my copy of the picture the next page of Dunn (p18) says: At Rattentout the men of the 2nd Battalion were in charge of supplying the right flank pf the American Army and the left flank of the Second American Army with rations, water and Ammunition. They also transported troops and light railway materials from Abainville to the Argonne" (ibid p 18)

p21 reproduces a map of the lines in question.

All of which, together, largely answers my questions so thanks for the reference.

Chris

[12thEngineers]

Regarding the image of Baldwin 5127;

The 14th Engineers (then-Lt. Colonel Louis Lovett, commanding) was engaged in running ration, water, and ammunition trains at the time the image was taken. According to the unit history, it was charged with supplying the "right flank" of First Army (US) and "left flank" of Second Army (US). It further notes that "slightly over 17,000 tons were carried during the month of October", 1918.

[4thGordons]

I've just come across another photograph of a locomotive in a selection of soldier's snapshots I bought on a whim. They appear to chronicle his service from camp (Fort Dodge IA) in the US, to France.

They are jumbled up, in no particular order and although some have annotations (they appear to have been taken with one of the Kodak Authographics where you could annotate the negative with a stylus) and others have penciled notations. This one is blank.

It appears to be a 2-6-0 tank locomotive but can anyone tell what type and if standard or narrow gauge?

Apologies for the poor quality but the original print is 2.5"x1.5

Chris

Edit: looking further into the pile - this appears to be a second shot of the above train as it passes, if the rolling stock might help ID?

and this appears to be a locomotive on a steep incline railway? In the US or France?

Edited 11 July , 2015 by 4thGordons

[green_acorn]

Chris,

The first two are on metre gauge track, whether in Belgium or France I do not know. But the vans/box cars do look like ones I have seen in books from Belgium. The last is a "cog" or "rack" railway engine, possibly on the Manitou and Pikes Peak Railway in the US.

Cheers,

Hendo

[4thGordons]

Thanks for that Hendo.

There are a couple more photos of an old carriage too. It seems the chap liked trains I'll post as I scan them.

Chris

[Hereford Horseman]

Pen & Sword have a new book coming about the narrow gauge railways of Arras:

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Allied-Railways-of-the-Western-Front-Narrow-Gauge-in-the-Arras-Sector-Hardback/p/7842

Graham.

[green_acorn]

Graham,

Thnak you, that book has been on and off their "coming soon" list for quite a while. I have pre-ordered twice and both times they have cancelled my order due to the delays. The second time they notified me by mail here in Australia. So I will wait until they actually have stock on hand!

Hendo

[green_acorn]

..

The choice of 2'6" gauge for these lines is interesting. Following pre-war experiments, 2' 6" was chosen by the military for siege railways, despite the Germans and French choosing 60cm (1ft 11 5/8") gauge, as both counties (especially France) had built a lot of these lines to serve rural areas.

So when light railways were found to be required on the Western Front, the War Office had to adopt 60cm gauge. It was however decided that railways in other theatres would stick to 2' 6". Hence the use of 60cm in France/Belgium, ...

I have been reading the GHQ BEF DG Tpt's: History of Light Railways, the reason for using 60cm gauge was solely because the Germans used it. When the decision was made in 1916, It was hoped to quickly connect up with captured German networks enabling faster exploitation of any tactical success. Unfortunately, as we know, the BEF rarely had the deep successes that captured significant light rail networks, and the destructive effect of both British artillery and German demolitions were not considered.

Hendo

[MartinWills]

W J K Davies "Light Railways of the First World War: History of Tactical Rail Communications on the British Fronts, 1914-18" is a classic volume on this topic. Out of print it is both scarce and expensive - but an inter library loan may be a route to consulting a copy.