Officers's Back Up Revolvers/Pistols

[Khaki]

Has there been anything written about British Officers carrying secondary weapons, such as Webley bulldogs or pocket auto's?

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

Sassoon carried a Browning .32 which, IIRC was auctioned a few years back.

[MikB]

Sassoon carried a Browning .32 which, IIRC was auctioned a few years back.

That's certainly the most obvious example I can remember. He didn't really expect it to be much use against the enemy, but was acutely aware of the numbers of severely-wounded who died in great pain over periods of hours or days in NML. It was primarily carried to end his own suffering should that become necessary.

Regards,

MikB

[Stoppage Drill]

That's certainly the most obvious example I can remember. He didn't really expect it to be much use against the enemy, but was acutely aware of the numbers of severely-wounded who died in great pain over periods of hours or days in NML. It was primarily carried to end his own suffering should that become necessary.

Regards,

MikB

So why did he feel he could not rely on his Webley, do you think ? Remarkably easy to only wound yerself with a small calibre pistol, even with a self-headshot. Who was that German general who only blinded himself with his Walther PP after being called to Berlin in the aftermath of July 20th ?

[centurion]

The KuK issued the 7.65mm Dreyse pocket pistol to the army - for what purpose one isn't sure. It was also used by a number of German police forces including the Royal Saxon Gendarmerie

[calibre792x57.y]

Sassoon carried the Browning in lieu of a service revolver, not as back-up - SW

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Some British Officers carried a 7.65 mm ( .32 ) Automatic Pistol in preference to the Webley service revolver, including the Webley 7.65 mm Automatic Pistol, and also the larger Harrington & Richardson version.

Attached are 2 photos of a British Officer's WW1 Harrington & Richardson 7.65 mm ( .32 ) Automatic Pistol in my Collection.

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

So why did he feel he could not rely on his Webley, do you think ? Remarkably easy to only wound yerself with a small calibre pistol, even with a self-headshot. Who was that German general who only blinded himself with his Walther PP after being called to Berlin in the aftermath of July 20th ?

SD,

Many people have survived an attempted suicide using firearms of all different calibres. Owning and firing various 7.65 mm pistols, including the H & R shown above, and the Walther PP and PPK, I can assure you that getting hit with a 7.65 mm round will certainly stop you, and depending where you are hit, will probably kill you. Like most bullets, the 7.65 ( .32 ) is a lethal round.

Regards,

LF

[genegwf]

Well said LF,

Speaking as a retired police officer,I had the task of responding to suicides and attempted suicides. One I remember was a fellow who used a shotgun to the head and survived.

He changed his mind at the last second and made a mess of his face.

The .32 is small but they all hurt.

Gene

[ServiceRumDiluted]

Would one reason to carry a spare be that in the heat of close quarter combat it would be easy to fire off the webleys 5 or 6 (not sure which! I'm sure someone will enlighten me.) rounds quite quickly and even with a Prideux(?) Speedloader going to a second weapon rather than reloading might be a lifesaver? Same reason old Bluebeard carried a rack of pistols.

[centurion]

The .32 is small but they all hurt.

Gene

Of course they do but if I had a large gentleman in grey with a spike on his head, a bayoneted rifle in his hands and slaughter on his mind approaching me and I felt an overwhelming desire to stop him I'd feel more confident with a service Webley to persuade him than a little pocket pistol.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Of course they do but if I had a large gentleman in grey with a spike on his head, a bayoneted rifle in his hands and slaughter on his mind approaching me and I felt an overwhelming desire to stop him I'd feel more confident with a service Webley to persuade him than a little pocket pistol.

Some WW1 Officers would have agreed with you, and others would not, hence their preference not to carry the Webley service revolver. I think we all agree that the .455 round would do more damage, the point was that the 7.65 mm bullet is also potentially deadly.

LF

[Khaki]

I believe that the C96 Mauser pistol in 7.63 had an extremely high velocity. Before I get pounced on I accept that velocity isn't the only factor in ballistics.

khaki

[MikB]

I believe that the C96 Mauser pistol in 7.63 had an extremely high velocity. Before I get pounced on I accept that velocity isn't the only factor in ballistics.

khaki

Winnie rated it at Omdurman. The bottleneck round put out a bullet of about 93 grains against the .32's 71 - 77 grains, at about 1400 ft./sec against the .32's 950-odd, with around 3 times the energy; so it was certainly in a different class. On the downside, the pistol was expensive, complicated and nose-heavy. Some would say the bullet was still much too light (compare to the .455's 265 grains), but it was unlikely to fail to penetrate heavy clothing and equipment, or 'bulletproof' jackets like that discussed a week or so back. It was later adopted by Ivan as the 7,62 Tokarev round, and served in those drum-fed Soviet submachineguns in WW2.

I'd have to check, but I've an idea Sassoon disliked the big Webley simply because of its size, weight, and the bondage kit you had to wear to carry it. The Browning could just be slipped in a pocket.

Regards,

MikB

[Beerhunter]

This idea of a "back-up" pistol, or revolver is more of an American concept.

[centurion]

This idea of a "back-up" pistol, or revolver is more of an American concept.

No British as well but mainly amongst the criminal 'fraternity'

[AlanD]

Has there been anything written about British Officers carrying secondary weapons, such as Webley bulldogs or pocket auto's?

khaki

Not much has been published on this matter. However, a number of gunmakers and retailers ledgers such as William Evans and Wilkinsons show sales of two handguns to one individual. Normally a large calibre revolver and a smaller calibre semi auto pistol such as a Webley & Scott .32 or Colt Hammerless .32.I would not say the practice was widespread but niether was it particularly uncommon.

Regards

AlanD

Sydney

[centurion]

One simple reason why some were carnying a pocket auto instead of a Webley could be that the latter marked you out as an officer and potential target whereas the pocket pistol; would be more difficult to spot.

[Khaki]

Many thanks for the replies everyone,

A difficult if not impossible question to give an answer to, and may have varied greatly for a number of reasons, perhaps an officers unit or what stage the war had reached. I would guess that 1914 officers would have thought it 'not the done thing' whereas by 1917/18 survival was the foremost consideration.

khaki

[centurion]

Many thanks for the replies everyone,

A difficult if not impossible question to give an answer to, and may have varied greatly for a number of reasons, perhaps an officers unit or what stage the war had reached. I would guess that 1914 officers would have thought it 'not the done thing' whereas by 1917/18 survival was the foremost consideration.

khaki

In 1914 Bernard Montgomery went into action carrying a sword, discovered that he didn't really know how to use it and kicked his opponent in the unmentionables (which had the desired effect)

[Radlad]

Many thanks for the replies everyone,

A difficult if not impossible question to give an answer to, and may have varied greatly for a number of reasons, perhaps an officers unit or what stage the war had reached. I would guess that 1914 officers would have thought it 'not the done thing' whereas by 1917/18 survival was the foremost consideration.

khaki

I understand that many officers carried rifles towards the end of the war, possibly a pocket pistol would be a sensible and convenient back up. Judging by the large numbers of Dreyse and Walther 7.65mm pistols that came back to the UK as trophies, it would be fairly easy to acquire one on the battlefield ?????

[centurion]

I understand that many officers carried rifles towards the end of the war, possibly a pocket pistol would be a sensible and convenient back up. Judging by the large numbers of Dreyse and Walther 7.65mm pistols that came back to the UK as trophies, it would be fairly easy to acquire one on the battlefield ?????

Some officers started to carry rifles as early as the South African War

[dman]

Type of pistol carried were usually determined by the officers function and how close to the fighting they were

Officers in front line units would usually (but not always) choose a heavy caliber weapon - they were ones must likely to have to use them

Those farther back often used smaller caliber (ie 7.65 calibers) to avoid the weight and bulk of a full size weapon

Staff officers often carried only a small pocket pistol in caliber as small as 6.35 mm (.25 acp) as they were not likely to have to use them in a combat situation

Here is an example - 6.35 mm LE FRANCAISE STAFF OFFICERS"

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8894454

[dman]

In France pistol situation was complicated by introduction of the non standard "RUBY" model semi auto in 7.65mm

Soon after war started French discovered that would need many many more pistols than expected

The standard French handgun was the 8mm :LEBEL: revolver - strange weapon in that cylinder swung to right instead of left

for reloading.

Discovered needed pistols for medics, wiremen (stringing phone lines), machine gunners and others who needed a weapon, but unable to

carry the standard Lebel rifle because of size and weight

Contracted with Spanish gun makers to manufacture Browning copies based on 1903/1910 modesl - some 2 doxen companies involved

as contractors with dozens more sub contracting Had open ended order with these firms for 50,000 per month

Hundreds of thousands of these guns were made - because of the numerous contractors parts, especially magazines, woul;d not interchange

Many were sold/given other armies during and after war - some serving in World War 2 (ie Finland, Greece)

[MikB]

Type of pistol carried were usually determined by the officers function and how close to the fighting they were

Officers in front line units would usually (but not always) choose a heavy caliber weapon - they were ones must likely to have to use them

Those farther back often used smaller caliber (ie 7.65 calibers) to avoid the weight and bulk of a full size weapon

'Mad Jack' Sassoon was a bit of an exception to that...

Regards,

MikB