William Thomas Newman

[Phil Wood]

Hi,

Looking at the above soldier who died in Nov 1914 serving with the Cameronians. I cannot definitely find him in the 1911 census unless he is Thomas Newman, 2 R Berks in India. This is quite likely as age (24) and birthplace (Newbury, Berks) match.

However he died with the Cameronians, how could he have switched so early in the war?

Assuming he was serving with the R Berks in 1911 he would surely have been in uniform or on their Reserve in 1914 and would have gone to France with their 1st or 2nd Bn?

But his Cameronian number (8330) suggests he enlisted with them in September 1914 (comparing with close numbers on SWB roll).

Were Reserves transferred to make up the numbers in other regiments at this time??? Any other ideas?

One vague possibility was that he may have been living in Chesterfield (his wife was living there according to the CWGC) - a long way from the R Berks. Could he have reported to a local depot or somesuch and been assigned to the Cameronians?

Phil

[dundeesown]

Your mans entry into the theatre of war with the Scottish Rifles is given as 15.08.14 on his medal card.

Gary

[aradgick]

Phil,

It is possible for men's records to become mixed up. I've already found Henry William Marshall from Bracknell entwined with William Marshall from Wallingford, and a man from the West Midlands mixed with another Bracknell man.

Andrewr

[Phil Wood]

Your mans entry into the theatre of war with the Scottish Rifles is given as 15.08.14 on his medal card.

Gary

Doh! Should have noticed that! So his number is a red herring - but could be have transferred from R Berks reserve to Cameronians in the opening days of the war? If the R Berks had more than they needed to make up the numbers for their 1st Bn at Aldershot, would some have been diverted to another regiment?

I have now looked at the Cameronian numbering in a little more depth - and it is all over the place, pretty good up to 1908 - if he is in that sequence he enlisted with them mid-1903. Aug/Sep 1914 is chaotic.

I still think it very likely he was the Thomas Newman in India with 2 R Berks in 1911,- the only other Thomas from Newbury was 4 years older (28 in 1911).

[Bombadier]

Do you have any info on his family? My grandfather was Maurice Newman and he was one of a number of brothers who served and returned. He was born in Curridge Chievely which is generally given as Newbury.

Nigel

[Phil Wood]

I haven't done a lot of family history for him - what I have:

William Thomas was born in Newbury in 1886 the eldest son of Silas Newman (from Aldbourne, Wilts) and his wife Eliza née Randall. He had one elder sibling, Frances Isabella (born 31 October 1882) and six younger siblings: Henry Montague (1888), Beatrice Eliza (1891), Jessie Mabel (1893), Sidney Silas (13 July 1895), James Ewart (22 August 1898), Edward Charles (10 March 1901), Lilian Beatrice (1907). Beatrice died tragically young in 1902 and there were two further children who died during or soon after birth: Laura (1885) and Olive Mary (1903).

He married Rebecca Mary Ford in Newbury in 1912 - she was from Derbyshire. I don't know if he ever lived in Chesterfield but Rebecca was there when the authorities were in communication with her as witnessed by William's CWGC entry.

[Bombadier]

Thanks for that Phil. Obviously a different family as I don't recognise any of the names.

Nigel

[purley]

The man on the 1911 census in India was Thomas E Newman from Appleton, R Berks 8080 - died 3/8/18

John

[Phil Wood]

Thanks John

Put that man on a charge for lying to the census! Why would a chap from Appleton give his birthplace as Newbury???

To confuse me I suppose

Phil

[markweston]

hi phil

i am william thomas newmans greatgrandson,i found your question recently while looking for more information on my g grandfather,and so joined the group.

he enlisted in the cameronions in 1904 after having worked as a groom,i presume at a place called glendale lodge,newbury as his future wife worked there as a servant.his occupation as a groom is stated on his attestment papers which i have a poor photo copy of.he left in jan 1911 having served 7years with 4 years abroad and one year in the 2nd m.i.(motorised infantry?).mentioned in his record for civil employment the army also state that he is a very good groom.

he marries rebbeca newman(ford ) in newbury in jan 1912 turns up again living in tynewydd in s wales in 1913,at the funeral of their first child beatrice who died aged 7months.they must have still lived in wales at the time of his reinlistment because my grandmother was born there at the same time he went to france,but moved to derbyshire shortly after.

he was injured sometime during the last week of october /first days of november and taken to the F.A linen factory at bac sur mer. ,it was here he died and was buried along with 3 others from the scottish rifles,they were later reburied at trois arbres cematery

i too saw the other william thomas in the royal berkshires and would also like to fill the gap of 1911 but have had no luck.

regards

mark

[Phil Wood]

Hello Mark - I have just found your post, somehow I don't seem to have received a notification when you posted it (???) - I hope you are still watching the forum!

Thanks for the information, which fills out his story significantly. Reading it I wonder whether he was discharged in India or some other distant part of the Empire? If so he could be travelling homeward at the time of the 1911 census, which could explain his absence from it.

I have not been able to find any service records - where did you get the attestation papers? Any chance of a copy?

2nd M I seems more like Mounted Infantry to me, especially if he was working as a groom.There is a picture of Cameronians as mounted infantry in India in another thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66175&page=2

It's been a few months since I was last looking at Tom Newman and some extra records have been made available, the medal rolls add little but the register of soldiers' effects is useful in that it shows that he died at the 19th Field Ambulance, adding another little piece to the story.

Here's hoping you see this!

Phil

[markweston]

hi phil

thanks for replying.

if someone could tell me how to upload i will gladly let you have a copy.i also have a photograph of him in uniform which is the only one we know of in existance,which i will also upload if you wish to use it on the berkshire memorial project.

i believe you are right on the mounted infantry it certainly makes sense.

it also would seem that he could have been on aboard ship on the way home as he enlisted on the 29th feb 1904 and served 7 years exactly which i belive is around the census time.

again thanks for getting in touch

[Phil Wood]

Hi Mark,

A photograph of him would be great!

I sent you my email address in a PM (personal message) - if you haven't seen it click on the envelope icon alongside your name at the top of the page.

You can send the attestation and photograph in higher resolution via email. However, if you want to do it on the Forum there is an image icon in the message editor toolbar, which allows you to add images to a post.

Tom Newman's story (so far): http://westberkshirewarmemorials.org.uk/texts/stories/WBP01203S.php

Phil

[Annie1914]

Sorry, I can't add much to the information about William Thomas Newman but thought you might like to know that his name

is inscribed on the plinth of the war memorial at Staveley.

https://staveleyremembers.wordpress.com/war-memorial/they-also-died/

Annie

[Phil Wood]

Hello Annie,

This is a thread that keeps on giving!

I'm delighted to hear that Tom Newman is remembered in Staveley - and over the moon that there is a photograph of him on the Staveley site. Are you the Ann who wrote the history of the memorial for the site? Are you able to give me permission to use photographs from the site in my next edit of Tom's story?

[Annie1914]

Hi Phil

I can't take the credit for the photo... I got it from an ancestry family tree.

The Staveley Remembers website is still a work in progress and I have a lot more info to upload/update/revise.

You are very welcome to use the photographs of the memorial from the website.

Annie

[Phil Wood]

Hello again Annie - I found the Ancestry tree and promptly sent a message to the owner to get permission to use it - only to then realise that the owner is Mark who posted above. Looks like I'm going round in circles again!

Thanks for the permission to use the memorial photos - I shall see what I can fit in!

Has your research uncovered how Rebecca Newman came to live in Staveley? Presumably this is how Tom made it on to the memorial?

[markweston]

hi annie

i still live in the staveley area and didnt know that my great grandfather had been added to the memorial in staveley,i will let my family know.i know he is remembered on the berkshire memorial.

my great grandmother remained in the chesterfield area for the rest of her life after my g,grandfathers death.i am unsure that william thomas came to live in staveley because my grandmother was born in wales in july 1914 but i heard that she or her father had a grocers shop in staveley( he also had a grocers shop in sheffield),i will try to find out more.

mark

[Annie1914]

Hi Mark

I believe that your ggf's name was added to the plinth sometime around the early 1990s, but have not seen the evidence/council minutes relating to the additions.

The only link to Staveley that I have found, so far, is Rebecca's address on Pipe Lane... and a census search of that address hasn't revealed any clues.

There is no obituary in the Derbyshire Times but I will have a look at the Derbyshire Courier.

The Record Office in Matlock has the electoral registers which could give some idea of when Rebecca moved to Staveley.

Although "Soldiers Effects" state that his will was in favour of Rebecca, I haven't found it on Soldiers Wills which would probably have included her address in 1914.

I will pm you my contact details

Annie

[Phil Wood]

Hi Ann, what is your opinion as to why Tom's name was added? Did someone do some research and find his CWGC record as the husband of Rebecca of Staveley? Or was it from a record of those rejected originally?

[Annie1914]

Hi Phil.

I am told that the names were added following some research by a local resident and, like you, suspect that the information merely came from the CWGC record.

Even with the greater range of resources now available, I have been unable to prove any but a tenuous connection for two of the seven names which were added to the plinth.

Certainly, by the original "rules" for the Staveley Memorial, they would not have been included as neither was resident in the parish when they enlisted.

Unfortunately,the relevant parish council minutes are missing from the County Record Office so I cannot check the lists/reasons why some names were originally rejected.

[Phil Wood]

Thanks Ann - it all adds interest to a story.

Here in Newbury I have found a number of possible names to add to the war memorial - and the council seem keen on the idea and ready to put on whichever names I suggest; but I am loathe to rush it only to find that the connection is too tenous. And I'm not to happy at being investigator, judge and jury as it were.

Phil