Chalford War Memorial

[HeatherC]

I'm involved with a small group who are researching the names on the war memorial in Chalford, Gloucestershire.

The memorial has 156 names on bronze plaques and they cover not only the men from the village of Chalford who died, but men also commemorated on church or village memorials in the surrouding villages of Bussage, Eastcombe, France Lynch, Bisley, Frampton Mansell and Oakridge. The memorial was repaired after being broken in 1981 by a heavy snowfall and the names on it were increased at that time from 66 (Chalford village only) to 156 (all surrouding villages). Since the "new" memorial plates only bear the first initial and surname, while some of the original church ones had full names and even Units, it has been a challenge to work out which men are actually on the meorial and which are not, especailly with common surnames like Gardiner and Young.

Here's an example of one of the local church memorials - this is Oakridge - and we don't think all the men here are on the Chalford memorial for example.

So as well as the usual confusion with common surnames which is made more interesting here by the decision to combine the names onto one memorial we also have the problem that I think any war memorial research group comes up against, we simply cannot identify some of the men on the memorial, even with the extra detail that others local memorials give us. I'd like to use this thread if I may to post our "mystery men" and see if someone out there can come up with any possible ideas for us. We find it most frustrating to have a memorial with "Lest we Forget" on it and be unable to identify 6 of the men it commemorates.

There's a blog written by the person who started the research group here https://greatwarchalford.wordpress.com/sifting-the-evidence/ which has some great stories in and here is our most up to date list of the men commemorated http://www.chalford-pc.gov.uk/_documents/14_WAR_SPREADSHEET_updated_6th_June.pdf

Edited 14 June , 2014 by HeatherC

[KevinBattle]

A quick scoop through CWGC Debt of Honour produces these, some of which you no doubt have...

I assume that Chalford in Wiltshire is entirely separate?

ALDUM CHRISTOPHER C 23 05/08/1915 Private Somerset Light Infantry

ANDREWS ALEC CHARLES A C 21 25/10/1916 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

ARNOLD FRANK F 26 31/05/1916 Leading Stoker Royal Navy

BLACKWELL ERNEST GEORGE JAMES E G J 44 31/07/1917 Serjeant Gloucestershire Regiment

CHATTERIS TOM BRODIE T B 32 09/08/1915 Captain Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)

CLARK ALBERT VICTOR A V 24 06/01/1915 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

COOK E F 21 29/09/1918 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

CREED WILLIAM HENRY W H 28 17/02/1919 Private Labour Corps

CURTIS ALBERT EDWARD A E 31 14/10/1918 Gunner Royal Garrison Artillery

DAMSELL GILBERT FRANK G F 25 M M 21/12/1917 Private Worcestershire Regiment

DANN HENRY NORMAN GROVES H N G 19 15/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Flying Corps

DAVID GEORGE G 26 04/03/1917 Private Worcestershire Regiment

DAVIS ERNEST GEORGE E G 20 04/04/1917 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

DEAN TERRANCE EDWARD T E 22 09/04/1918 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

GARDINER A R 18 25/10/1918 Private Royal Warwickshire Regiment

GARDINER ARCHIBALD FREDERICK A F 26 16/08/1916 Private Australian Infantry, A.I.F.

GARDINER R J 26 05/04/1918 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve

GRIFFIN ALBERT HUGHES A H 28 28/08/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers

GRIFFIN DAVID D 21 25/10/1916 Fitter Royal Field Artillery

GUBBINS SIDNEY S 23 27/03/1917 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

HALLIDAY ERNEST E 29 08/11/1918 Fitter Royal Field Artillery

HERBERT CHARLES HENRY C H 38 01/12/1917 Private Grenadier Guards

HERBERT GEORGE WILLIAM G W 31 11/08/1917 Private Royal Berkshire Regiment

HUNT JAMES WILLIAM J W 19 06/08/1914 Able Seaman Royal Navy

JACQUES W E 21 14/04/1920 Private Cheshire Regiment

JAMES JOHN J 28 30/10/1914 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

MILLS P S 19/09/1918 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

MORGAN JOHN HYWEL J H 33 22/11/1917 Second Lieutenant Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry

MORGAN RICHARD GODFREY R G 26 13/11/1916 Second Lieutenant East Yorkshire Regiment

OLLERENSHAW J 18 06/08/1915 Lance Corporal Grenadier Guards

PATCHELL FRANCIS VERNON F V 19 28/09/1915 Private Coldstream Guards

PEARCE LOUIS REGINALD L R 26 05/02/1918 Air Mechanic 2nd Class Royal Flying Corps

PHELPS S 03/02/1917 Driver Canadian Field Artillery

SMITH ARCHIE WILLIAM A W 26 17/04/1918 Lance Corporal Gloucestershire Regiment

SMITH BERTIE WALTER B W 22 23/08/1917 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry

STEPHENS ALBERT EDWARD A E 21 07/06/1917 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

STEVENS WILLIAM FRANCIS W F 19/08/1916 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

TAYSUM HARRY H 42 20/10/1915 Private Royal Gloucestershire Hussars

VICK FREDERICK WILLIAM F W 30/12/1914 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

WARD J W 33 27/09/1918 Lance Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry

WEBB FRANCIS JOSEPH F J 35 04/04/1918 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

WEBSTER FRANK TREVOR F T 33 08/08/1919 Staff Sergeant Canadian Infantry

WEBSTER GERALD HEBER G H 21 03/07/1916 Private Gloucestershire Regiment

WILES ROBERT R 20 30/09/1918 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve

[Simon_Fielding]

Any that are a particular problem Heather?

[BillyH]

These two may be worth checking out (I don't have much geographical knowledge of Gloucester myself!)

Harry Stephens : 3rd Worcesters : 10.4.18 : residence Staunton, Gloucs and son of - - - - - Redmarley, Newent, Gloucs

Frederick William Matthews : 9.5.17 : 12th Gloucs : born Herton, enlisted Gloucs : son of - - - - - Badminton, Gloucs

BillyH.

Any that are a particular problem Heather?

See the second link in post # 1

[HeatherC]

Thanks guys, I can see I should have posted our "problem list" here straigh away really! We have done considerable work on each of the "missing" men and really don't want to send people down rabbit holes we've already been down so apologies for that. Yes Chalford, Wilts is unrelated.

Here's the first problem then.

L Cummings

This is an example where we think the current memorial has an error. The old memorial plaques (now on the wall of the Chalford ex-services club) which date either from the 40s or the 60s (accounts of their replacement differ!) and which replaced the original stone carving on the memorial done in the 20s say "A Lionel Cumming" (see pic) and there is no other local memorial entry for anyone with the surname Cummings.

A parish magazine entry from the 20s when the cash was being collected (by public subscription) to fund the memorial mentioned that a "Miss Cumming" gave a generous donation but there is no further detail.

We have found an Alfred Lionel Cumming, 2Lt RFC who died 7 June 1917 aged 25. His service record is at Kew but not digitised (WO339/86145)

He is described by CWGC as " Son of James Henry and Ada Cumming, of Casilla, No. 978, Valparaiso. Born at Chile, South America.". He had served first as an Airman and was gazetted 2Lt on 13.4.17. Has a MIC (BWM and VicM) and his medals were sent to his mother in Chile.

Looking further into the family the nearest we can come to a local connection is several older ladies from what appears to be the UK branch of the family living in Cheltenham after the war. Maybe one of them paid to have him remembered here but why Chalford? (not exactly next door to Cheltenham!)

So right now we like to think he is our man but we have no proof and no clue why he'd be commemorated in Chalford.

Anyone got any ideas or any other candidates we might have missed for this identification?

Edited 14 June , 2014 by HeatherC

[Simon_Fielding]

RFC records are online

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?discoveryCustomSearch=true&_fn=Alfred+Lionel+&_ln=Cumming&_sd=&_ed=&_ser=AIR+76&_col=online&_dt=RO&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=GO

[HeatherC]

Thanks Simon - not sure why I hadn't spotted that one, I was sure last time i looked his record was not downloadable. Of course when you are researching 156 men you can't afford all the £3.30 downloads you'd like to make to check them out! I haven't seen an RFC Officer's record before - what kind of thing are we likely to find?

Edited 14 June , 2014 by HeatherC

[HeatherC]

These two may be worth checking out (I don't have much geographical knowledge of Gloucester myself!)

Harry Stephens : 3rd Worcesters : 10.4.18 : residence Staunton, Gloucs and son of - - - - - Redmarley, Newent, Gloucs

Frederick William Matthews : 9.5.17 : 12th Gloucs : born Herton, enlisted Gloucs : son of - - - - - Badminton, Gloucs

BillyH.

Thanks Billy.

I had both of these on the list of "possibles" but in each case they have no obvious connection with Chalford. Newent and Badminton simply are not near enough to explain their inclusion. I will post my detailed stories on each of these two later!

[HeatherC]

Next puzzle!

Charles Saunders

Mentioned on Bussage Church memorial (as Charles Saunders - see pic) and the original Chalford memorial plaques (as Charles E Saunders) and also on the Chalford roll of honour produced by the local paper at the time (as Saunders Ch. KIA). Also mentioned in a list published by the Stroud News of Chalford men serving in 1914-15. (as Saunders Ch.)

No Charles Saunders entry on CWGC or SDGW has any obvious Chalford and district connection. I have checked each CWGC/SDGW casualty using Ancestry to look at census and birth entres as far as possible and found nothing "local".

No Charles Saunders living in any of the local villages in 1911, nearest are in Stroud and unlikely to be commomorated at Chalford. His inclusion in the local "men serving" list from 1914/15 makes it unlikely that this is a case of someone paying to have him commemorated in Chalford even though he had lived elsehwere (we have several like this)

[Simon_Fielding]

http://www.ww1photos.com/RFC_C.html

Photo of Cumming for sale here too...

[Simon_Fielding]

Expect you have this already from 'Flight' 21st June 1917

Second Lieutenant A. LIONEL CUMMING, R.F.C., killed in

action on June 7th, was a grandson of the late Colonel R. O.

Cumming, 52nd Regiment, of Coulter, Cheltenham, and

fourth son of Mr. J. H. Cumming, Whose death, the result of

an accident, occurred in Valparaiso on the same day as that

of his son at the Front. Three other sons are serving, and

the fifth is now on his Way home for the same purpose*

[HeatherC]

You're a marvel Simon. No I had not seen the obituary (note to self must try harder! ) and it does confirm something I spent ages working out on Ancestry through census and BMD entries and wills, that there were two branches of the Cumming family, one living in Chile and one in the UK and that the UK one had military connections (there's a Rear Admiral in there somewhere too). Our favourite theory is that the mysterious Miss Cumming who donated to the memorial was an aunt of A Lionel from the UK side of the family who wanted him remembered here not in Chile. Of course we can't prove it and all the fascinating stuff about this man does not get us one step closer yet to proving he's the one on our memorial, which is very frustrating!

[HeatherC]

Next puzzle

C Weaver

The Chalford Tabernacle (Baptist) plaque has an entry for Charles Weaver

There is also an entry on the list of Chalford men serving in 1914-15 from "Stroud and the Great War" published by the Stroud News for "Weaver C, R Marines"

CWGC has only one match for this - PO/9516 Pte Charles William Weaver, RMLI who died 13 Jan 1915 aged 32 and is commemorated on Portsmouth Naval Memorial

"Son of Charles and Bessie Weaver, of Kew Gardens, London; husband of Beatrice G. Weaver, of 28, Clarence Square, Gosport, Hants."

His service record is online at Kew and gives his enlistment date as 1898. (Not downloaded it yet as it's another £3.30 and this gets expensive awfully fast!)

He's in the 1901 census in a RM barracks.

BMD search finds him in 1879 in Richmond District, Surrey (census entries say born Kew)

1881/91 censuses show him with his parents in Richmond. Neither parent is from Gloucestershire. In 1911 his parents are in Kew and not one of his 9 siblings was born in or living in Gloucestershire neither did any of them die there as far as I can tell.

In 1911 Charles is living with his wife Ellen in Isleworth MIddlesex.

Matching marriage for Charles Weaver and Ellen Anne Farrow Dec Q 1902, No Charles Weaver married anyone called Beatrice!

CWGC give his widow's name as Beatrice and an address in Gosport, Hants (as above)

RM Graves Roll (from Ancestry) gives her name as Beatrice but the address as the Isleworth one above where he was lving with Ellen in 1911.

Of course there is absolutely no hint of any Chalford connection!

[Simon_Fielding]

Just a thought - do you know who the vicars were in Chalford during / after the war?

[HeatherC]

Just a thought - do you know who the vicars were in Chalford during / after the war?

I assume you're thinking of someone who might have not been there in 1911 but then been there during the war so the family might now show in the census? I think we've tried that, as contemporary parish magazines survive (not totally straightforward as we'd have to also include the vicars of Bussage/Eastcombe and Bisley which were all separate ecclesiastical parishes) but I will check with the other members of the Group who are more knowledgeable than me on local church matters. The Chalford Baptist Minister lost two sons, both remembered on the memorial, Richard and (John) Hywel Morgan, both infantry second lieutenants.

[Simon_Fielding]

RO Cumming and his wife Annie died 1904 and 1909 - the funeral coverage describes the family pretty well...

[Simon_Fielding]

and here...

[HeatherC]

Thanks Simon. The three Misses Cumming mentioned in the second clipping would have been A Lionel's aunts then and we suspect one of them of being the mystery "MIss Cumming" who gave the money to Chalford memorial. But I still don't know why Chalford!

Which papers are these from by the way?

[HeatherC]

Mystery man no 4

H Stephens

The beautiful illuminated scroll that is the France Lynch church memorial has an entry for "Herbert Stephen"

The Stroud News list of Chalford area men serving in 1914-15 has an entry for "H Stephens"

There is a 1914 list of local men serving that has an entry for "Harry Stephens, Territorials"

We can find no match in CWGC. SDGW or any other military record for Herbert Stephen

Going through all the H Steven(s) / H Stephen(s) entries on SDGW and CWGC we only find one local connection:

24753 Pte Albert Henry (Harry) Stevens who enlisted into the Glosters and transferred to the MGC and who died of wounds on 20 Aug 1917.

Harry Stevens was born in Horsley in 1891, son of George and Kate. In 1901 he's working on his grandparents farm in Horsley. At the time of his death, his parents were living in Bisley.

Although this man seems like a definite possibility there's still the issue that he doesn't match the name on the usually reliable France Lynch scroll, so we have not put him as a confirmed identification yet.

[Simon_Fielding]

I assume you're thinking of someone who might have not been there in 1911 but then been there during the war so the family might now show in the census? I think we've tried that, as contemporary parish magazines survive (not totally straightforward as we'd have to also include the vicars of Bussage/Eastcombe and Bisley which were all separate ecclesiastical parishes) but I will check with the other members of the Group who are more knowledgeable than me on local church matters. The Chalford Baptist Minister lost two sons, both remembered on the memorial, Richard and (John) Hywel Morgan, both infantry second lieutenants.

Just notice in the obits that a Cumming son in law is Rev FW Wallis - and RO Cumming helped establish St Stephen's Tivoli - perhaps a link with Chalford parish incumbent?

[KevinBattle]

Assuming BillyH in post #4 hasn't found your man, there appear to be two StePHens families and one SteVens in the Chalford area.

Albert Edward Stephens was the son of Albert Edward and Elizabeth Stephens of "The Hermitage" Avenis Green, Chalfont.

The Harry Stephens you show in post #19 is the son of George and Kate....

You also have a William Francis Stevens, the son of Francis Stevens of Cowcombe Hill, Chalfont

[HeatherC]

Thanks Kevin. The memorial has A Stephens, H Stephens and W Stevens and we have already idenitifed Albert Edward and William Francis as being two of them, but haven't managed to definitely identify H Stephens yet. Harry son of George and Kate was spelled Stevens, though I have found the records for this name aren't always perfect and I have found Stevens and Stephens spelled both ways in the same record.

I don't think the Harry Stephens that BillyH mentioned is our man. Newent / Staunton are quite a long way from Chalford.

[Simon_Fielding]

Just notice in the obits that a Cumming son in law is Rev FW Wallis - and RO Cumming helped establish St Stephen's Tivoli - perhaps a link with Chalford parish incumbent?

Marion Eleanor's husband:

Name: Frederick William Wallis College: ST JOHN'S Entered: Michs. 1874 Died: 11 Jan 1925 More Information: Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, Oct. 3, 1874. [Eldest] s. of William, hosier (and Sophia). B. [Jan. 7, 1857] in St Marylebone, London. Bapt. Oct. 3, 1858. School, Surrey County. Matric.Michs. 1874; B.A. 1878; M.A. 1881. Ord. deacon (Worcester) 1880; priest, 1881; C. of Pershore, Worcs., 1880-4. C. of Barbourne, 1884-92. R. of Martin Hussingtree, 1892-4. R. of Hindlip, 1894-1915. Married, Jan. 5, 1881, Marion Eleanor, 3rd dau. of Lieut.-Col. Cumming, 52nd Regt., of The Manor House, Mancetter, Warws. Latterly of 4, Blenheim Parade, Cheltenham, where he died Jan. 11, 1925. (The Eagle, XLIV. 103; Crockford; The Times, Jan. 14, 1925.

[Simon_Fielding]

I wonder if this Tetbury born marine is worth checking?

Name: William Charles Weaver

Age in 1911: 29

Estimated birth year: abt 1882

Relation to Head: Head

Gender: Male

Birth Place: Tetbury, Gloucestershire

Civil Parish: Plymouth

County/Island: Devon

Country: England

Street address: 26 Neswick Street, Plymouth

Marital Status: Married

Occupation: Private, Royal Marine L J

Registration district: Plymouth

Registration District Number: 276

Sub-registration district: Plymouth South West

ED, institution, or vessel: 3

Household schedule number: 133

Piece: 12979

Presumably this is him in a Cornish fort in 1901:

Name: Wm Chas Weaver

Age: 19

Estimated birth year: abt 1882

Relation to Head: Pte

Gender: Male

Birth Place: Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish: Antony

Ecclesiastical parish: East Antony St James the Great

County/Island: Cornwall

Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: St Germans

Sub-registration district: Anthony

ED, institution, or vessel: Tregantle Fort

Neighbors: View others on page

Piece: 2187

Folio: 94

Household schedule number: 1

Household Members:

Name Age

William Young 26

Richard Beasley 29

Arthur J Allen 20

Albert H Allen 19

John Cranford 30

Albert Ernest Marten 18

Joseph Shepherd 18

John H Gillam 36

William Guest 18

Michael Henry 21

Charles Cattel 19

Ernest A Amplett 20

William Hall 19

Frank Ratcliffe 19

Henry Ormonde 25

George Lallnon 28

Louis Ball 34

William Mooney 19

Thomas Amos 39

Arthur Palmer 19

William G Brake 38

Louisa Brake 34

Kathleen C Brake 6

Maurice A W Brake 2

Alfd Wm Willer 32

Emmual Shepheard 17

William Murray 18

William Bratby 20

Francis North 33

Peter McOnil 23

Henery Parsons 22

Wm Chas Weaver 19

Robt Colman 20

Wm Thos Green 19

Albt Grimwood 30

William Bush 22

Elver Geo Fry 22

Wm Jas Vickery 21

Harry Roogers 20

Enoca Creaven 19

Edward Walley 25

Vernon Smith 18

Georg Smith 25

Harry Arthur Lunn 35

Alexander Cameron 34

Isigh James Griffis 33

[HeatherC]

Nice idea Simon but I think there is a death entry for him in 1958 in Plymouth (from an Amcestry tree) so looks like he survived the war and the immediate aftermath.