militariaone Posted 12 June , 2014 Share Posted 12 June , 2014 Greetings Gents, I considered myself “aware” of most of the US M1917 Bayonet variants, but I have never seen one with a Canadian acceptance mark on it. Was this done by a Canadian governmental representative at Remington’s factory? It does not make sense (at least to me) that it would have been done in Canada as the markings on the ricasso have the standard US applied cancellation marks as seen when they were requisitioned for U.S. use. Just wondering, thank you for your thoughts. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 June , 2014 Share Posted 13 June , 2014 As you say these markings show this bayonet was produced as a Pattern 13 for the British and then had those markings cancelled when taken into US service (so it is a bit of a puzzler as to whether it is a P13 or M1917 I suppose!) I have seen a Canadian marked M1917 rifle too. The story that went with the rifle at the time was that it was an "embassy guard's rifle" I have no idea as the the veracity of this (and did not buy it but it did have clear Canadian marks on it). I suspect that the most likely story is that the rifle(s)/bayonets were supplied to/sold to Canada well after WWI - possibly (probably?) early in WWII (US M1917 rifles and bayonets were also purchased by the UK and supplied as lend-lease aid in 1940), as US surplus (hence the original marks), for use by second line forces in Canada. So the story would be: produced late in the production run as a Pattern '13, was "left over" and became part of the the US govt M1917 contract (at which point the British marks were cancelled and the US ones applied) then - much later supplied to /purchased by Canada (my guess is in 1939/40) and property marked by them at this point. I have nothing by which to substantiate this theory but if asked for an explanation that would be my attempt to make sense of the markings. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 13 June , 2014 Share Posted 13 June , 2014 one in my collection almost identical to yours regards Bob R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 13 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2014 As you say these markings show this bayonet was produced as a Pattern 13 for the British and then had those markings cancelled when taken into US service (so it is a bit of a puzzler as to whether it is a P13 or M1917 I suppose!) I have seen a Canadian marked M1917 rifle too. The story that went with the rifle at the time was that it was an "embassy guard's rifle" I have no idea as the the veracity of this (and did not buy it but it did have clear Canadian marks on it). I suspect that the most likely story is that the rifle(s)/bayonets were supplied to/sold to Canada well after WWI - possibly (probably?) early in WWII (US M1917 rifles and bayonets were also purchased by the UK and supplied as lend-lease aid in 1940), as US surplus (hence the original marks), for use by second line forces in Canada. So the story would be: produced late in the production run as a Pattern '13, was "left over" and became part of the the US govt M1917 contract (at which point the British marks were cancelled and the US ones applied) then - much later supplied to /purchased by Canada (my guess is in 1939/40) and property marked by them at this point. I have nothing by which to substantiate this theory but if asked for an explanation that would be my attempt to make sense of the markings. Chris Greetings Chris, A most promising (& probable) theory. Thank you, for taking the time to share it! Bob, it is most excellent to see your Canadian variant too, thank you for the share. Here's the rest of my M1917s (two are as mentioned were originally P13s) the Canadian marked one is 2nd in from the left. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 13 June , 2014 Share Posted 13 June , 2014 Here's the rest of my M1917s (two are as mentioned were originally P13s) the Canadian marked one is 2nd in from the left. Lance, A very nice collection, and interesting to see on the far right the scarce ' 1918 ' error dated Remington M1917. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 June , 2014 Share Posted 13 June , 2014 Indeed a nice set there militariaone! The erasure markings (roller-stamped?) of the US ones are really quite interesting and I have never seen anything like that before in my limited experience, and so nice to know about them - and what to look for! Thanks to all for comments and information! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 29 July , 2014 Share Posted 29 July , 2014 Hi Guys, I have just picked up a Canadian marked 1917 as well. However my marking is smaller and on the opposite side of the pommel - and on the ricasso. Judging by the refinished look, I am assuming that this is an early WW2 marking. Wonder if there were 2 periods when these came from the US? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk VII Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 Canada purchased a quantity of M1917 rifles in 1940, most seem to have ended up with the RCAF. After the war they were sold to Denmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 6 August , 2014 Share Posted 6 August , 2014 Thanks Mk VII. Do you have any references to the Canadian sales? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 6 August , 2014 Share Posted 6 August , 2014 Just rummaged through the collection today and noticed that I had two of them - one by Winchester and can't remember who made the other one. I purchased them at gun shows in the Washington, DC area some thirty years ago. All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smellieguy Posted 7 August , 2014 Share Posted 7 August , 2014 A guy that I buy from sometimes had a Canadian marked M1917 AND bayonet at the gun show last month. Guess I should have bought it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 August , 2014 Share Posted 8 August , 2014 Canada purchased a quantity of M1917 rifles in 1940, most seem to have ended up with the RCAF. After the war they were sold to Denmark. Thanks Mk VII. Do you have any references to the Canadian sales? Cheers, Tony I'll second that! MkVII - will you point us to the source of that information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 7 September , 2014 Share Posted 7 September , 2014 Gentlemen, there is one type of bayonet for the British Pattern 1914 (P14) Service Rifle = the Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet, of which there are two variations, but only one manufacturer. That manufacturer is Remington. The two variations are:- 1) Left ricasso: 1913 + date + Remington logo // Right ricasso: standard British acceptance markings (as for Pattern 1907). 2) Left ricasso: as above // Right ricasso: as above, but cancelled out by hatching, with Remington acceptance markings added. There are two types of bayonet for the American Model 1917 (M17) Service Rifle = the Model 1917 Sword Bayonet, of which there are two manufactures to the first variant = Remington + Winchester. The two manufacturer variants are (for the first variation):- 1) Left ricasso: 1917 + Remington logo // Right ricasso: standard US acceptance markings (Remington specific variation). 2) Left ricasso: 1917 + 'W' underlined + date // Right ricasso: standard US acceptance markings (Winchester specific variation). 3) Left ricasso: 1917 + 'W' within a circle // Right ricasso: as above. The manufacturer for the second variation:- 1) Left ricasso: 1918 + Remington logo // Right ricasso: standard US acceptance markings (Remington specific variation). An interesting point about the -1918- variation of the M17 Sword Bayonet, is that it was not officially sanctioned. For some reason, due to the new year of 1918, the pattern date was changed to match the year. It was quickly changed back to the original pattern date of 1917. However, it is not officially known as to how many of the 1918 dated examples were passed before the change back to the original date occurred. I have two examples. It is thought to be several thousand. I did contact Remington Arms in connection to the change, and they confirmed the above. Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 September , 2014 Share Posted 7 September , 2014 Gentlemen, there is one type of bayonet for the British Pattern 1914 (P14) Service Rifle = the Pattern 1913 Sword Bayonet, of which there are two variations, but only one manufacturer. That manufacturer is Remington. Hi Seph, welcome back to the forum - it's been a while.! Hate to play the pedant with you ... but it needs to be said for correctness. Winchester also made large numbers of P1913 bayonets, also Enfield and Vickers in much smaller quantities. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 7 September , 2014 Share Posted 7 September , 2014 Ayup S>S.... thanks.... nice to be back in the chair. The site has changed its set-up, but I'll get used to that. Reference the P14 and M17 bayonets, I purposely omitted the Enfield and Vickers, as I was referring to the American variants... which are far more numerous that the latter. Its only within my circles I know, but I have only.... during my time of bayonet collecting... encountered two examples made by Vickers, none by Enfield. In fact, in reference to the Vickers examples... didn't we have a rather lengthy discussion on this forum as to authenticity of an example? if my memory serves correctly, it actually turned out to be one of the original pre-production prototypes. Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 September , 2014 Share Posted 7 September , 2014 Yes the Enfield and Vickers types you could virtually term 'trial' bayonets as they were only produced in the 1/2000's but they occasionally surface (a couple on here) But the Winchester P1913 was produced in commercial quantities. I think the quoted number is 200,000+ and they are the scarcer GW variant of this bayonet family. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 7 September , 2014 Share Posted 7 September , 2014 Yes..... same as their first variation M17. Hmm... missed that one off somehow... and I've got three of them. The Winchester variants do tend to command a higher sale price of roughly a half again over those of Remington. I've changed my photo system from what it was, and am having next to no success in uploading any photo's. Thanks for posting yours S>S. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 8 September , 2014 Share Posted 8 September , 2014 Hi Seph, I haven't been collecting for that long, and I also have 2 1918 marked Remingtons, and have seen others for sale. They must have knocked out quite a few before changing back to 1917. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 9 September , 2014 Share Posted 9 September , 2014 Tony.... from what I have been able source, there does not seem to be any form of official figure stated for the total production run prior to the return to the official model designation of '1917'. I can recall that when I first started collecting, the 1918's were being dismissed as rejects. As such, they could be picked up for next to nothing. At least that was the case here in Blighty! Even today, the 1918's do not seen to command a value anywhere near that of a Winchester. I think that to the serious collector and novice alike, the 1918 at present is simply regarded as an oddity. I would say it's a classic waiting in the wings. From my experience of coming into contact with actual 1918's over the years, I would make an estimation at a production run of around 200,000. The Remington Pattern-1907 Sword Bayonet only had a total production run of just over 100,000, between March 1915 to January 1916. Between here and the USA, I have a total of '8' different stampings for the Remington '07'. Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 9 September , 2014 Share Posted 9 September , 2014 Hi Seph, Yes, that would make sense - and make them rarer than the Winchesters! I only have one Remington 1907 . How rare do you reckon the transitional M 1917's are from October (?) 1917, the ones with M 1917 markings but no 'oil-hole'? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 September , 2014 Share Posted 9 September , 2014 And while we are at it - what does the LOC say: 'clearance' or 'oil' hole. I think the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 9 September , 2014 Share Posted 9 September , 2014 I know it's not really an oil hole!!! Is this parlance being retired??? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 September , 2014 Share Posted 9 September , 2014 I know it's not really an oil hole!!! Is this parlance being retired??? Cheers, Tony I know you know the consensus opinion Tony! Just chiding you in an indirect way! Inshallah, we'll get an answer! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 9 September , 2014 Share Posted 9 September , 2014 "Reference the P14 and M17 bayonets, I purposely omitted the Enfield and Vickers, as I was referring to the American variants... which are far more numerous that the latter. Its only within my circles I know, but I have only.... during my time of bayonet collecting... encountered two examples made by Vickers, none by Enfield. In fact, in reference to the Vickers examples... didn't we have a rather lengthy discussion on this forum as to authenticity of an example? if my memory serves correctly, it actually turned out to be one of the original pre-production prototypes." yes twas mine I think http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108045&hl=%2Bvickers+%2Bbayonet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 1 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Greetings Gents, Instead of starting another M-1917's thread, I thought I'd post this "curiosity" here. Anyone have any ideas/insight on the (non-matching) markings found on this M-1917 (but 1918 date marked, not pictured) example's crossguard and pommel? Bayonet remains in an unmodified American 2nd model scabbard without any additional markings (i.e. no stamped numbers). I assume, the numbers stamped on the bayo are "rack" numbers, but I'd like to see what others may have to add/say. Thank you, for your valuable time and thoughts. The 1918 dated examples are well covered in this and other threads, so please... no need to rehash that bit of info here, just thoughts on the markings please. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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