Please help identify a bullet

[Ms Pah]

First post ever: bit wobbly!

I'm making a WW1 handling collection and have recently acquired a beautiful trench art bullet case-cum-crucifix that i'd like dated. I think it may be pre-WW1. I've had a search-browse but there's so much and it's a tough task for a newbie to ammo identification. Anyway...

It's 7 cm long, sunken hole in base with what looks like a short threaded post in the centre. Markings go...

3 (on its side) IA.VIS.I. horizontal line with tiny arrow pointing to outer circumference? IAHT.O.

It'd be great to have a steer on this. Sorry I can't post image without a bit of a faff at present.

Many thanks to anyone who can shed some light.

[TonyE]

A picture is worth a thousand words, but I can tell you it is a 8mm French Lebel round.

From your description the "sunken hole" is probably the primer pocket and the "post" is the anvil. try searching the forum for "Lebel".

Regards

TonyE.

[Beerhunter]

Please take this kindly. If you are staring a collection then you may as well use the correct nomenclature.

What you have is a cartridge case. The bullet is the projectile that comes out of the barrel of a gun.

Newbies aren't helped by the media, who don't know one end of a round/bullet/case from - well anything actually. :-)

[ServiceRumDiluted]

Tony is your man for this sort of thing, but does it look anything like this?;

I've had this for some time and thought for ages that it was a reversed bullet fashioned with some crude fins, then it dawned on me that it is a small crucifix talisman with a few mm from the top broken off. The 8mm Lebel round would have been ideal for this as it was made from solid bronze and would have been easy to shape into a comforting crucifix. Add that to the high numbers of Catholic Poilus and these touching little keepsakes must be not uncommon.

[Ms Pah]

Thank you so much, chaps, for the help here. Been lost in France all summer and very happy to see your replies. Bit egg-on-face about the 'bullet' issue, so thanks for the kind upbraiding.

(I'm very new to the GWF and am astonished and heartened by the copious amounts of generosity in providing help and information. Wish it was as easy up the local museum!)

I have another two of these crucifixes (costapacket on ebay) that I ought to try to identify, and would love to ask , but can see that images would help, so I'll make some.

I love these. This one is pristine and beautifully-made. For the WW1 handling collection for young people that I'm making, I've needed to acquire as many items with Scots provenance as possible (British, if I must) and that this casing is French is, I have to say, a little disappointing. I guess, however, that soldiers exchanged all sorts of things and that this may well have passed into the hands of a Tommy.

Many thanks again; I look forward to bringing the others to the table, if you'd be so kind.

best wishes

[centurion]

And to further confuse one new to the subject the area at the "bottom" of the cartridge case where all the useful codes are stamped is called the "head" stamp. I would suspect that the British soldier would also use a French round to make such things as it would be difficult with either the British or German jacketed bullet to make such a neat job (and the French bronze would polish up nicely) and I'm sure that coming by a French round would not be difficult so that I'm afraid there is no guarantee of who made it. Moreover some (a lot?) of trench art was made as much to sell and get a few sous or pence for the odd glass of wine or beer (and by all accounts some of the beer was very odd) as for personal souvenirs.

[MikB]

And to further confuse one new to the subject the area at the "bottom" of the cartridge case where all the useful codes are stamped is called the "head" stamp.

What makes it worse is that the neck and shoulder are at the opposite end to the head.

I sometimes think the allegedly inaccurate terminology that calls the projectile the 'head' really makes more sense in that context, but then we'd presumably have to call the details on the bottom the 'footstamp'...

Regards,

MikB

[Ms Pah]

Nothing more edifying than sitting back listening to the experts expound! Thanks so much Centurion & MikB for helpful comments. I'm loving hearing about the superiority and preference for French casing for such art as I need a bit of interesting 'story' for the write-up for items in the collection. Big thanks to all. LJ

[centurion]

Nothing more edifying than sitting back listening to the experts expound! Thanks so much Centurion & MikB for helpful comments. I'm loving hearing about the superiority and preference for French casing for such art as I need a bit of interesting 'story' for the write-up for items in the collection. Big thanks to all. LJ

Not the French casing but the French bullet. British, German and American bullets were "jacketed" being relatively soft lead inside a thin harder metal jacket (hence the term "full metal jacket" which you may have heard.) French bullets were solid bronze which would make them much more suitable to carve, cut and especially to file and would polish up nicely afterwards whereas lead oxidises quite quickly and does not hold a shine.