5 Poilus Found; 5 September 1914

[MelPack]

Five poilus recently found complete with rifles in Luneville Wood from the earliest days of the war:

Links here:

http://www.estrepublicain.fr/actualite/2014/06/01/decouverte-de-5-corps-de-poilus

http://lorraine.france3.fr/2014/06/01/luneville-decouverte-des-restes-de-cinq-poilus-de-1914-equipes-488823.html

and a delightful translation below for which no warranty is offered or provided - least of all concerning the amorous relationship or otherwise between the two finders:

Luneville discovery of five bodies Hairy

Deux passionnés ont localisé l'endroit où sont tombés plusieurs soldats français dans une forêt lunévilloise le 5 septembre 1914. Two lovers have located where several French soldiers fell in a forest lunévilloise September 5, 1914.

Gérard Louis Philippe and Sugg, the discoverers have also made some pictures on the site where the five were exhumed body Hairy fell 5 September 1914.

Les fouilles viennent d'avoir lieu de façon officielle et confidentielle à la fois. Excavations just held official and confidential manner at once. Sur les indications de Philippe Sugg et Gérard Louis, les deux découvreurs, l'Onac (Office national des anciens combattants), en présence de la gendarmerie, a exhumé cinq corps de Poilus tombés là le 5 septembre 1914, dans un petit coin d'une forêt privée à l'Est de Lunéville. Indications of Sugg and Gérard Louis Philippe, the two discoverers, the Onac (National Veterans) in the presence of the gendarmerie, exhumed five bodies Hairy died there Sept. 5, 1914, in a small corner of private forest east of Luneville. C'est d'ailleurs pour préserver la tranquillité du site et de son propriétaire que les fouilles se sont déroulées de façon discrète. This is also to preserve the tranquility of the site and its owner that the excavations were conducted discreetly.

Bien connus des Lunévillois en raison de leur passion pour la Seconde Guerres mondiale (mais aussi pour les conflits de 1914) et les traces laissées dans le secteur lunévillois, les anciens collectionneurs d'objets militaires, considérés parfois comme des pilleurs de tombes, ont donné depuis quelques années un autre sens à leurs fouilles. Lunévillois well known because of their passion for the Second World War (but also for conflict of 1914) and the traces in the area Lunévillois, former military collectors of objects, sometimes referred to as grave robbers gave recent years another meaning to their excavations.

Sur la base de documents référencés généralement recoupés avec leurs propres connaissances des conflits et leur analyse du terrain (l'un des deux est militaire à la retraite), ils se sont mis en tête d'identifier des soldats tombés, les retrouver et permettre de les inhumer, si possible chez eux. Based on referenced documents generally intersected with their own knowledge of conflicts and their analysis of the ground (one of them is retired military), they went ahead to identify fallen soldiers, find and afford bury, if possible at home. « Ce sont des hommes, souvent très jeunes, qui quittaient leur famille en sachant qu'ils ne rentreraient pas… Qu'ils soient morts en 14 ou en 40, Français, Allemands ou Américains, ils ont donné leur vie et méritent, si on sait où ils sont tombés, qu'ils soient enterrés, auprès de leur famille, avec les honneurs… » "These are men, often very young, who leave their family knowing they would not return ... They are dead in 14 or 40, French, Germans or Americans, they gave their lives and deserve, if knows where they fell, they were buried with their families, with honors ... "

Philippe Sugg, le militaire récemment retraité, très à la pointe des divers mouvements de régiments et de leurs positions jour après jour, avait cerné l'endroit où ont eu lieu de terribles combats aux premiers jours du conflit : « Les documents évoquent la mort de plusieurs dizaines de Poilus dans cette forêt. Philip Sugg, the recently retired military, very tip of the various movements of regiments and their positions every day, had identified where took place the terrible fighting in the early days of the conflict: "The documents suggest the death tens of Hairy in this forest. » "

Une petite Sainte-Vierge, des pièces de monnaie, une montre à gousset… A small Virgin Mary, coins, a pocket watch ...

Les cinq corps retrouvés sont ceux de militaires tombés le 5 septembre 1914. Le nom d'un soldat, gravé sur une plaque retrouvée permet de le certifier. Five bodies found are those of soldiers killed Sept. 5, 1914. Name of a soldier, found engraved on a plaque can certify. Ce Poilu, de 27 ans, dont l'identité est tenue secrète dans l'attente d'authentification des éléments recueillis, venait de Perpignan. This Hairy, 27, whose identity is kept secret in the authentication information gathered waiting, had Perpignan. Où il a été mobilisé début août avec son régiment, le 143 e RI, pour quitter sa garnison huit jours plus tard à destination de la Lorraine. Where he was mobilized in early August with his regiment, the 143rd RI, to quit his garrison eight days later to Lorraine.

Le corps de ce soldat est resté figé là où il est tombé cent ans plus tôt. The body of the soldier froze where he fell a hundred years earlier. Des morceaux de pantalon garance ont été retrouvés. Pieces of red trousers were found. Son fusil Lebel sur lui. Lebel rifle on him. Une fiole en verre encore à moitié pleine d'alcool de menthe. A glass jar still half full of alcohol mint. Une petite Sainte-Vierge, que les Poilus glissaient dans une poche. A small Virgin Mary, the Hairy slipped into a pocket. Des pièces de monnaie. Coins. Une montre à gousset. A pocket watch. Une pochette avec une ligne de pêche. A pocket with a fishing line. Un verre de lunette… Et de nombreuses douilles dont la concentration, comme l'explique Philippe Sugg est un témoin : « Cela signifie que les hommes sont restés sur place et se sont battus, en face à face avec les Allemands. A spectacle lens ... And many sockets whose concentration, explains Philippe Sugg is a witness: "This means that men stayed behind and fought, face to face with the Germans. Les Français s'étaient mis à couvert dans un petit fossé… » Des Poilus dont les restes ont été extraits par l'Onac qui leur donnera une sépulture officielle, sans doute dans un cimetière militaire voisin. The French had begun to cover in a small ditch ... "The Hairy whose remains were extracted by Onac that will give them a formal burial, probably in a nearby military cemetery. Où dans leur village si les identités parviennent à être authentifiées. Where in their village so identities are able to be authenticated. Ce qui semble être en bonne voie pour l'un d'entre eux. What seems to be on track for one of them.

[Martin Bennitt]

Great find

I can't believe that translation. I'll post a more intelligible one on the fate of these Hairies if anyone wishes.

Cheers Martin B

[Roger H]

Yes please!

Roger

[Martin Bennitt]

This is the translation of the second link, to the report by the France 3 regional television channel and AFP. I'll do the other one later:

Gérard Louis and Philippe Sugg, two men from Lorraine whose passion is tracking down the bodies of soldiers missing in action in their region, recently found the remains of five poilus from 1914 with all their equipment in a wood near Lunéville in Meurthe-et-Moselle, it was reported on Sunday, June 1.

One of the soldiers was found with his ID disc. "He was a young man of 27 who came from a small place near Perpignan", said Philippe Sugg, a retired soldier and the leader of the research, which also involved the National Veterans Office (ONAC) and the gendarmerie.

Five skeletons of poilus in all were uncovered, along with their Lebel rifles, belts and cartridge pouches, shreds of red trousers, a pocket watch, a phial of alcohol, two purses and a small image of the Virgin Mary, which was to bring good luck, Mr Sugg said.

Fighting in this wood had occurred at the beginning of September 1914.

The remains are in the care of ONAC, pending their official burial, probably in a nearby military cemetery. In the case of the soldier who has been identified, whose name has not yet been released, the possibility has been raised of burial in his home village. He was called up at the beginning of August 1914 with his regiment, the 143rd RI, which left its barracks a week later for Lorraine.

Cheers Martin B

[Roger H]

Thanks for taking the trouble to translate Martin.

Roger

[Martin Bennitt]

My pleasure Roger.

Here is the report from L'Est Républicain

Bodies of five poilus found near Lunéville

Two enthusiasts have found the spot where French soldiers fell in a Lunéville forest on September 5, 1914.

The excavations were carried out in an official but confidential fashion. Tipped off by the two discoverers, Philippe Sugg and Gérard Louis, ONAC (the National Veterans Office), assisted by the gendarmerie, exhumed the bodies of five poilus who fell on September 5, 1914, in a small corner of a private forest east of Lunéville. The digging was done discreetly so as not to disturb the site or its owner.

Well known in Lunéville for their passion for World War II (but also for the 1914 conflict) and the traces which remain in the area, the former collectors of militaria, who were sometimes viewed as grave robbers, switched the focus of their investigations several years ago. Using archived documents in combination with their own knowledge of the fighting and analysis on the ground (one of them is an ex-soldier), they decided to identify fallen soldiers, find them and enable their burial, if possible in their homeland. "They were men, often very young, who left their families knowing they might not return. Whether they died in 1914 or 1940, were French, German or American, they gave their lives and deserve to be buried with honour back with their families...."

Philippe Sugg, who recently retired from the military and is an expert on the movements of the various regiments and their positions day by day, had zeroed in on the spot where fierce fighting occurred in the first days of the war. "The documents speak of the deaths of dozens of poilus in that forest".

The five bodies found are those of soldiers who fell on September 5, 1914. The name of one soldier, engraved on a plaque, has enabled him to be identified. This poilu, aged 27, whose identity is still secret pending the verification of the evidence, came from Perpgnan, whdere he was mobilised with his regiment, the 143rd RI, before leaving the barracks a week later for Lorraine.

The body of this soldier remained in the position where he fell 100 years ago. Shreds of red trousers were found, and his Lebel rifle beside him. There were also a galls phial half full of mint alcohol, a small Virgin Mary, which the Poilus tended to carry in a pocket, some coi,s, a pocket watch, a little bag with a fishing line, a spectacle lens, and a large number of cartridge cases whose concentration, according to Philippe Sugg, bore witness to the events. "This means that these men stood their ground and fought the Germans face to face. The French had taken cover in a small ditch..."

ONAC will give the poilus an official grave, probably in a nearby military cemetery, or in their home villages if they can be definitively identified, which seems to be the case for one of them.

Cheers Martin B

[Roger H]

Thanks again

[MelPack]

Aww Martin you have taken all the fun out of the lovers' find and the Hairys ................ but thanks for the time taken to provide a decent translation.

It is good to know that human beings can prevail over computers.

[Seadog]

That is very good news and soon they will get the dignified burial that they so richly deserve. One question which is purely hypothetical, is it likely that the five were first of all from the same regiment and then possibly from the same company, if so is it not the position that if the sample group can be narrowed down to a reasonable figure the question of DNA analysis looms large. Remember the excellent results in respect of the BL-15 when finally the authorities agreed to use both DNA and other tools in what turned out after many years to be a great result. Has any member knowledge of the French authorities utilizing DNA profiling in the recent past, it would be interesting to know.

Norman

[MelPack]

Norman

I have never seen any reference to DNA testing being deployed by the French authorities.

In this instance, there are only three recorded deaths for the 143rd Infantry Regiment on the date concerned and it took me five minutes to identify the soldier based on the information contained in the article using the French equivalent of the CWGC:

Henri Hippolyte Thomas PAJAU Mort pour la France le 05-09-1914 (Hériménil, 54 - Meurthe-et-Moselle, France) Né(e) le/en 18-11-1887 à Eus (66 - Pyrénées-Orientales)Carrière

Gradesoldat de 2e classe

Unité143e régiment d'infanterie (143e RI)

Classe1907

Bureau de recrutementPerpignan (66)

Matricule au recrutement895

Lieu de décès (suite) bois de Bareth

Mention Mort pour la France

Lieu de transcription du décès Eus

Département de transcription du décès 66 - Pyrénées-Orientales

Pays de transcription du décès France

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/client/mdh/base_morts_pour_la_france_premiere_guerre/resus_rech.php

[MelPack]

Lo and behold a search on his name turns up a further development:

Photo of Henri Pajau, the child died 14 Eus

June 04 at 6:00 by Martial Mehr | Updated June 04

• 

  Reproduction of the photo Pajau D'Henri, died at the front in 14. (Photo by PHILIPPE Perpignan ROUAH)

• 

  Military plate with Henri Pajeau at its back, the registration number of the Catalan hairy. (Photo by DR)

• 

  Photo of military plaque Catalan soldier Henri Pajau and the little maiden who had belonged to him was posted on the Facebook page of the municipality of Eus. (Photo by DR)

• 

  The five bodies were discovered at a place called Gareth Wood, scene of fierce fighting. (Photo by © DR)

• 

  Reproduction of the photo Pajau D'Henri, died at the front in 14. (Photo by PHILIPPE Perpignan ROUAH)

Quarter

Of the five Hairy exhumed remains of this May in Meurthe-et-Moselle, the Catalan soldier Henri Pajau was identified. He was killed in battle at the age of 27 years. His remains will soon return.

Engraved on the war memorial in the small cemetery, the name of Henri Pajau on the list of the 36 young men killed in action on the battlefields of 14-18. Children from the village died for France and for many of them, have never been found, buried under the rubble of a horrible war. Missing since September 5, 1914, Henry was Pajau since entered on the register of missing persons, in the archives of the city of Eus. In 1920, the declaratory judgment of death was finally passed without any trace of the fallen soldier has been reported or found so far.

A century later, when start the centenary celebrations of the Great War, the story of the soldier Pajau takes a different turn. And nobody in the village would have imagined. On May 14, in fact, two lovers of the Great War, specializing in the search and research of soldiers unearthed five bodies near the town of Hériménil in Meurthe-et-Moselle, in the locality " Bareth wood. "

• A plate and a blank

Of these five skeletons, one of them had personal items including an identification plate bearing the name of Henry Thomas Hippolyte Pajau and a little virgin. Addressed to the pole War Graves and high places of national memory in Metz, objects and the remains were analyzed. Monday, investigators have confirmed that it is the remains of the body of the soldier Pajau, originally from Eus "We stayed mouthed receiving mail from pole burial of Onac (note:. National Office veterans and victims of war.) It's amazing and we are very happy to find this fallen soldier who comes from a family in the village. Henceforth, we will lay a wreath on his grave, "said the mayor. For José Montessino, the time is now to return and homage. "I contacted the granddaughter of Henry Pajau sister who lives in Perpignan. We will ask that the body is now routed on the town where we aim to achieve a tomb next to the war memorial, "he continues. Back with great pomp, according to the will of the mayor and that will certainly accompanied by a state ceremony, an honor reserved for veterans of the Great War. An event in this year of the centenary of the First World War.

One of the five hairy identified

The discovery of five skeletons Hairy is to the credit of Philip Sugg and Gérard Louis. The remains were exhumed with Lebel rifles, military belts, bandoliers and tattered pants and a pocket watch, a bottle of alcohol, a small figurine of the Blessed Virgin and other personal effects.

According to the authors of the discovery, five soldiers were killed in the exact spot where they were found, at a place called "Gareth Wood," near the town of Hériménil in Meurthe-et-Moselle, theater fierce fighting at the beginning of the war.

One Hairy was found with its nameplate. And the investigation determined that the plate found on the remains of one of the soldiers actually corresponds to Pajau Henry, born 18 November 1887 in Eus.

According to the results of the investigation by the division of war grave and high places of national memory, Henri Pajau was mobilized early August 1914 with his regiment of 143 RI, before leaving his garrison eight days later to battlefields of Lorraine. The little maiden found also belongs to the Hairy Eus.

According to Onac, this kind of discovery is not rare, but it is unique to each time Susie explains Jouffa responsible communication. "Certainly, we found eight hairy in a year, but it remains an event . A procedure will of course be implemented with the agreement of the family to give them back the remains of the body so that the body be buried in the family vault, "she says.

In contrast, four other unidentified body found alongside Henri Pajau be buried in the nearest military ossuary.

http://www.lindependant.fr/2014/06/04/henri-pajau-l-enfant-d-eus-mort-en-14-bientot-de-retour,1890992.php

[Seadog]

Hi Mel thanks for the info in your posts, in your opinion and given that there were only three recorded deaths in 143rd Infantry Regiment on the date concerned is this a viable case for DNA profiling and would such a technique be seriously considered if these men were British and not French?. Lastly with your invaluable experience of the BL-15 case have you any contacts with the French authorities whereby you might be able to ascertain as to whether they will consider the use of DNA profiling in this case for once the men are buried then of course all chances of any identification will be gone.

Best Regards

Norman

[CROONAERT]

given that there were only three recorded deaths in 143rd Infantry Regiment on the date concerned

I think that you'll find that there were quite a few more than 3 from that regiment on that day.

Dave

[Seadog]

The quote is from Mel’s post

In this instance, there are only three recorded deaths for the 143rd Infantry Regiment on the date concerned and it took me five minutes to identify the soldier based on the information contained in the article using the French equivalent of the CWGC:

The question is Dave if there is a chance of identification by using DNA profiling will the French do so?

Norman

[MelPack]

I think that you'll find that there were quite a few more than 3 from that regiment on that day.

Dave

The Memoire des Hommes index is a collaborative and voluntary project - the index is far from exhaustive and that is precisely why I referred to the recorded deaths. The 143rd only has seven recorded entries for the entire month of September 1914.

[MelPack]

....... is this a viable case for DNA profiling and would such a technique be seriously considered if these men were British and not French?. Lastly ......... have you any contacts with the French authorities whereby you might be able to ascertain as to whether they will consider the use of DNA profiling in this case for once the men are buried then of course all chances of any identification will be gone.

Norman

It is impossible to say in this instance because the precise number of missing KIAs for the locality and the date are unknown. The MoD's guidelines are clearly stated as to the combination of criteria that must be met for DNA testing to be implemented. My own view is that anything beyond the maximum ratio of one recovered to five unknowns is not worth pursuing.

Happily, I have had no contact with the fetid French bourgeoisie nor the agencies of its state. Notwithstanding that, even if there were the will to conduct DNA testing, the data to identify the 'Hairys' with no known graves does not appear to exist. For example, even the figure for the number of corpses removed from the battle zone for burial in their home town or village during the war is unknown - the best estimate suggests around 300,000. The issue is further complicated by there being no definitive number as to the French dead - figures vary widely between 1.35 to 1.6 million.

Mel

[Seadog]

Thanks Mel I will take that as a no then, I like the word "fetid" by the way and I must try to work it into everyday conversation showhow

Regards

Norman

[MelPack]

Exactly 100 years to the day that Henri Hippolyte Thomas Pajau and his comrades died.

RIP