RobJones Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Hi All, I have recently acquired a 1913 Mk III SMLE and was wondering if anyone might be able to identify the regiment on the brass butt disc. I tried finding it through other threads but not had any luck. The stamping looks much better than other examples I've seen so I'm wondering whether it may be a more modern addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissparrow Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Hi Rob, Welcome to the forum. I am no expert on rifles, but look forward to seeing how quickly your question is answered! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 51 Anti-Aircraft Regiment ? Not one I am familiar with but would seem to be the most obvious interpretation. According to Wiki. an inter-war / WWII Territorial Unit from the London Area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 22 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2014 I thought anti aircraft regiment but didnt know if that made sense :-) Just read up on it and it does call the, 51 AA Regt so I guess that fits then. Its a WW2 regiment though so presumably the rifle was re-issued after WW1 which is why the stampings on the disc are so clear. Its a shame its not the original disc though, would love to know where the rifle has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Look for any rework markings on the left side of the wrist, that sometimes tells a tale. Also lift the rear top handguard off (carefully!) and see what the barrel markings are. Post them here and Chris or I will endevour to help. Regards Tonye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 22 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Thanks for all your help so far folks. Havent risked taking anything apart yet lol but this info seems useful, any ideas what all this means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 22 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 Some Searchlight Regiments R.E. became R.A. A.A. Regiments. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 1934 and 1936 FTRs (years by safety) U is common bolt head mark indicating "difference in specification" The XSAW is a puzzler - new one to me Is the rifle a MkIII* or has the * been lined out? Now the puzzler -- could we see a picture of the wrist of the rifle? I can't work out who the manufacturer would be... according to my notes Enfield used A,B,C,E in 1913 BSA used V,W LSA used L (close so possible if it is an LSA rifle) Is it possible it is a weakly struck 8 (so 1918 not 1913)? BSA and Enfield both used K in 1918 The markings under the upper handguard (as mentioned by TonyE) will probably be interesting. It is held in place by two strong spring clips Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 Thanks for all your help so far folks. Havent risked taking anything apart yet lol but this info seems useful, any ideas what all this means?edit.jpg Rob, The ' XSAW ' mark is stamped on a firearm to show that firearm was imported into the U.K. from South Africa, and in the photo in post # 6 the ' U ' mark to the left of XSAW mark may be a badly stamped South African Service Mark, which is a ' U ' with a ' ^ ' Broad Arrow mark within the ' U '. ( see the attached photograph ). Many such rifles were commercially produced by manufacturers such as B.S.A., and sold to the South African Government for issue to South African Para-Military Police Units, and then at the end of their South African service life, they were subsequently purchased by dealers and brought back into the U.K. I think it was sometime in the 1970s, that the South African Authorities required all firearms to be re-registered, and they were then given a ' W ' pre-fix to go with a new registration number, which I think was known as a ' Wappen ' number ? so the ' XSAW ' mark probably stands for ' Ex South African Wappen '. I currently own a BSA ' Long Lee ' rifle which had seen service in South Africa, and which carries both the South African ' U ' Service Mark, and the ' W ' Registration Mark ( see attached photos ). So we know for sure, that at some time, your rifle spent time in South Africa, probably with a Para-Military Police Unit. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 Rob, Attached is an extract from an Auction Catalogue offering a Lee Enfield rifle, with the ' XSAW ' mark ( Lot F28 ). Lot No. F29, is also a former South African service rifle, being marked S.A.P. for South African Police. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 I am confident that the U on the bolt head is what I indicated above (Difference in Specification) and not a misapplied South African mark. It is a very common stamping. Thanks for the information on the XSAW I was not aware of that. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 Rob, Could you check your rifle for any South African service marks as shown in post # 11, and is it possible for you to post a photograph of the wrist/butt socket markings, which will show the maker of your rifle. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 Its a shame its not the original disc though, Who says so? The discs were often (I'd go so far as to say mostly) left blank, or reversed for reuse, or linished and remarked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 26 May , 2014 Share Posted 26 May , 2014 Judging by the lack of crud around the butt disk and its screw, its either been taken off the rifle and cleaned, or its a non-original that has been placed there to replace something like a wooden plug. The problem is that, even if the disk is original, once it has been removed and cleaned it cannot be verified as being original any longer. Patina and crud are invaluable indicators of provenance! Given that the rifle is a re-import from South Africa, I'd say that there was no chance that the disk was original. Why would a rifle be in service for twenty or thirty years with one country, bearing old unit marks from a different country? About the only disks you see on SA rifles tend to be marked "SAP". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Thanks for all your input. Have been away from internet access and just got back to all this new info :-) I was told it was from South Africa but thought they had misinterpreted the brass disc, never realised it was the SAW stamping that signified that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 These markings arent so clear unfortunately. The BNP mark is something to do with British Nitrate Proof isnt it? What about the LFD 35? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 According to Wikipedia...."51st (London) Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment was a volunteer air defence unit of Britain's Territorial Army from 1922 until 1955. During World War II it served in Norway, The Blitz, North Africa (when detachments defended Crete and Tobruk), and finally in Italy until the end of the war in Europe, by which time a proportion of the regiment's personnel were African soldiers, and the guns were engaging ground targets rather than aircraft." So it could have been used during WW1, Reissued to an AA brigade and used during WW2 visiting Africa, possibly used by African soldiers and ending up staying there after the war. Presumably being used later by the BSAP until being bought by a dealer and shipped back home. Although we dont know who it belonged to during WW1 thats still quite an adventure :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 What about the LFD 35? That will be EFD over 35, a common RSAF Enfield inspection marking. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 So what do we think about the date here? 1913 or 1915? 1915 (which is what it looks like to me) would fit with the observed prefix data* (Enfield is known to have used K in 1915) whereas the observed data show only A,B,C,E for 1913. Chris *In the mid 1990s a group of collectors called the "Enfield Research Associates" compiled serial numbers / manufacturer data from a very large number of SMLEs. This is digested in Stratton "SMLE(No1) Rifles MkI and MkIII" (North Cape) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 So what do we think about the date here? 1913 or 1915? Chris, Here are enlarged scans of the date, which at first looked like 1913, and the more you look at the date, as you say it could also be 1915. The key is the small line which drops down from the left side of the top of the number, would that line normally be on a 3 stamping ? perhaps not. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Thanks LF - that is my view also. The bright spot just on the right of your yellow circle makes it look like there is a down stroke for a 3 but the rest of the area appears smooth where there should be a / from the top to the curved bottom. If I can get to it I'll photograph the wrist of my 1913 Enfield for comparison Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobJones Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Tried a more close up photo of the date, definitely looks like 1913 under a magnifying glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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