egbert Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 I'd like to understand what it means in operational terms when "Oil Projectors" are fired. Are there any informative pictures and mission descriptions which can be posted here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 G'day Egbert I can't spell Flamenwerfers mate, but I think an oil projector was the Good Guy's version. I'll check with the Aussie War Memorial, and get back to you. Only if you promise not to 'convert' one into a 'Chester control device ooRoo Paddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Egbert! I'm almost broken hearted mate! The AWM has let me down. As a consolation it does have a couple of pics, donated by Deutsche Reichsarchiv, of German flamethrowers. And just in case you think anything may have changed from Day 1, Cop this lot, Spider. ooRoo Paddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 I'd like to understand what it means in operational terms when "Oil Projectors" are fired. Are there any informative pictures and mission descriptions which can be posted here? The Canadian Official History give the following in connection with the Hill 70 Operation in August of 1917: " The assault went in at 4:25 on the morning of 15 August, just as dawn was breaking. Special companies of the Royal Engineers began firing drums of burning oil into Cité Ste. Elisabeth and at other selected targets in order to supplement the artillery fire and build up a smoke-screen. " I presume these were fired by "projectors" similar to the Livens Projectors used for gas. The Engineers also projected a lot of gas during this operation. Perhaps this is what was meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward_N_Kelly Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 The Livens fired an "oil drum" or incendiary round as well as its high explosive and a variety of gas rounds though phosgene seems to have the most common type. Cheers Edward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Ok, so a British oil projector is the equivalent to a portable German flamethrower (Flammenwerfer)? If that is correct, Pals are challenged to dig out a pic of a BRITISH oil projector and post it for me; thanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Ok, so a British oil projector is the equivalent to a portable German flamethrower (Flammenwerfer)? If that is correct, Pals are challenged to dig out a pic of a BRITISH oil projector and post it for me; thanx Well... The Livens Projector was more like a home made mortar thingee. They were usually buried between the front and support lines (if I remember correctly) and set off electrically. A bit of Googling gave me the a site containing a picture. You can see it here: http://www.ga98tew.eurobell.co.uk/vail/livens.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 (edited) Egbert No! The Jury is still out! So far 1 Canadian, & 1 Australian, 'think' that it may be something like a bangalore torpedo, ejected from a levins projector. This particular Australian thinks it was a weapon 'throwing' burning oil under the flamenwerfer principle. I think that because I seem to remember reports of them failing because all they did was squirt dirty oil. Now there is a connection between the WW2 Squid whuch was a ww2 Naval weapon along the lines of a levins .... You have asked for a photo. I'm sure our friendship can tolerate one more bash, here's a photo of a flamethrower our mob pinched from your guys at Polygon Wood. ooRoo pat This was started before Jhill's postin above. its not in dispute with it flamethrower Edited 16 October , 2004 by bonza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 The point is though, oil wont burn unless it is very warm, so to fire a drum of it, and expect it to catch fire from an incendary round is basically useless. To squirt it as a flame frower, would be a waste of time aswell because it would never ignite. The only way these methods would work, would be to dilute the oil with something very flammable like petrol, which basically makes the whole idea of using oil pointless, as you may aswell use a petrol based liquid in the first place. I think you are confusing an image of oil wells gushing up and burning, this is completly different stuff as it contains gasses and very inflamable mixtures straight out of the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 (edited) G'day Nigel Maybe we have to look at the usage of words oil, gas, petrol here. The term in Egbert's quotation MAY have been appropriate in 1917 but 'morfed' a bit by now. I can remember a device [but came remember the name*] at 'trades School', for plumbers to heat lead etc. It used kerosene under pressure. Used properly it gave off a concentrated flame. it didn't take the kids long to find out that if you 'pumped like mad' and applied the pressure early you could shoot a stream of flaming kero into the cotton waste bin & get a break from lessons. Same principle? ooRoo Pat They were just called a blow-lamp or blow torch Edited 16 October , 2004 by bonza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Hi All I do not have a clue how the oil drums were set on fire or weather it was oil used in them? But the 20th Divisions History records that 290 oil drums were fired at Eagle Trench (20-9-17) but fell beyond the trench and did little more then light up the advancing lines. Like others have mentioned, I would guess that a more flammable liquid like petol was sealed in the oil drums. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Co-incidently the AWM picture was taken on 20-9-17, a bad day. Would appreciate getting the location of Eagle Trench. I'd never heard of the drum projectiles & am calling off the search for an oil squirter. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 The 'oil can projector' describes the specific 'Livens Drum' mortar invented and developed by Captain Livens, commander of the Flammenwerfer Company (a Special Company of the Royal Engineers). (Bonza nicely illustrates a Flammenwerfer, below is a pic of the Livens) Liven's unit utilised flame throwers during the Somme offensive but he noted the lack of range failed in many cases to reach the German lines, thus he invented a mortar to throw oil based incendiaries as bombs. Projectors were simple empty 12 gallons oil drums of 12 inch diameter with the tops sliced off, these were half buried in the ground at around 45 degrees and loaded with the round. This was a simple ASC 3 gallon drum supported on a wooden base with a black powder charge below. Filled with an inflammable distallate, the projectile had oily rags attached to its casing - ignited by the flash of the launch. Initial trials showed a range of 200 yds, the drum bursting and the rags igniting the contents - very effective. This was the first basic model used at La Boisselle in July 1916, it would be further developed and refined through the war. The projector was also developed to carry gas and first trialled at Thiepval in November 1916 with frightning effectiveness. At Vimy in April 1917 2000 projectors were utilised to deliver a huge gas cloud to the German positions. The projectors were further developed to increase the range to close on 2000 yards and were put into service by the French and US armies. Altogether one of the simplest, most effective and 'brilliant' weapons of the entire war. The projectors can be seen at many museums including Le Tommy's back garden - the mortar projectiles' themselves seem to be popular as modern day lawn rollers! Picture below shows the later refined Livens; on the ground the projector (on a baseplate), bomb, ignition wiring and on the table the charges and firing box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Here is another picture and a little poem from one of the Liven's company operatives: I connect up one lead Ha Ha Ha Ha I connect up the other Ho Ho Ho Ho What care if I the Zero pass So long as I can give the Bosche a dose of gas Then it's over the top and camouflage No R.E. could be bolder But when they shell, we run like hell And dump the old exploder Not quite Sassoon calibre.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Sorry everybody when i read this i thought you were referring to engine oil etc. Of course diesel will burn and kerosene, not as good as petrol but will do the job. By the way send some diesel through a power washer instead of water and stick a match to it if you want to see impressive flame throwers, but make sure its somebody else's power washer and no your own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Hi Pat Eagle Trench is at Schreiboom, east of Langemarck. Hi Giles The poem may not be up to Sassoon calibre but a lot more fun to read. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Thanks Annette Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Temperature of ignition of oils varies with density (atomising temp /flash point. Typically kero/petrol/gas oil will ignite at a lower temperature than say a medium to heavy oil. Gas oil and medium/heavy oil is ready to ignite at around 50 - 130 degrees kero etc may be as low as 35 degrees C. Given the high likelyhood of HE being fired and machine gun fire it is not neccessary to directly ignite a vapourised oil cloud as there would be sufficient other sources of ignition. A drum of "oil" discharged by black powder etc would already have absorbed a significant amount of heat from the energy of the charge and thus its temperature would be more than ambient, it would be primed for ignition upon impact from other projectiles. The most probable fuel would be gas oil which is suitably unstable and volatile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Interestingly, the website noted by jhill above refers to Capt Livens of the Flammenwerfer Company, RE. That`s a new one on me! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 G'day agen Rupe! Got it mate! Perhaps the bloke writing up the daily action report could be excused for writing something like "We sent over 290 drums of oil"? Thanks for the good oil, as usual ooRoo Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Looks like the type of thing you could have at a BBQ party when the neighbours get uppety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Below is a "Livens Large-Gallery Battery Flame Projector" to give it its correct name or as we know a Flammenwerfer. This is the type used at High Wood in August 1916. A very good book on the subject is 'Chemical Soldiers' by Donald Richter. The nozzle or the firing end was known as the monitor. The two ton flammenwerfer was assembled in underground galleries. The section of earth over the firing position was dug thinner. Once the projector was ready to fire the pressure would raise the shaft of the monitor and break through the thin layer of soil and the pressurized oil was ignited by a flame as it spewed accross to the enemy lines. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Hey Pat, Stills earching AWM site but to keep things sailing long i thought i'd post this little pic.F ound this interesting make-shift underground kitchen - don't they have these sorts of thingys in Lightning Ridge? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 16 October , 2004 Share Posted 16 October , 2004 Caption for the above photo: France, c. 1916. A snow-covered mound of earth housing a relay post for despatch riders serving with the 1st AIF. The pipe sticking up from the mound may be a makeshift chimney for a stove set up inside the post. At left is a metal drum which may contain petrol for the despatch riders' motor cycles. Lying in the snow at right is a stretcher. (Donor J. Tinkler) 1st Australian Imperial Force; Despatch riders Related place: France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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