Concerning H.M.S. "Stonecrop." or

[larneman]

Now for my second question.

It seems that H.M.S. "Stonecrop." was actually HMS Glenfoyle 1690 grt built 1913. Sunk 18/9/17 by U43 in the Atlantic while operating as the decoy or Q ship Stonecrop.

What were Q ships? Were they manned by the Royal Navy or the Mercantile Marine(Reserve). Which ship was sunk according to offical records.? How many were losted.??

Just looking for more information on the Men of Larne that lost their lives in the

Great War

Thanks for looking,

Liam

[Michael Lowrey]

Liam,

Q-ships were commissioned vessels manned by Royal Navy crews. Typically, they were ordinary merchant ships fitted with hidden guns. The idea was that a submarine would surface and a panic party would flee the Q-ship. As the submarine neared the Q-ship, crews would man the hidden guns and hopefully sink the U-boat.

This was among the most hazardous duties in the war at sea -- sometimes the Q-ship sank the submarine, sometimes the submarine won the firefight (they did have 105mm and/or 88mm deckguns) or put a torpedo into the Q-ship. Sometimes both sank in these exchanges. In fact, U-boats sank more than twice as many Q-ships as Q-ships sank submarines. (11 U-boats were sunk by Q-ships. 29 Q-ships were lost during the war, 22 to U-boat. Two more were mined. Six sloops were also sunk while acting as Q-ships.)

Of course, the Q-ship concept doesn't work when the submarine launches a torpedo attack first and only surfaces after the Q-ship sinks, as was the case with U 43 and Glenfoyle.

"British Vessels Lost at Sea" lists the ship’s name as Glenfoyle. Q-ships adopted a number of identities; others for Glenfoyle included Stonecrop, Winona, and Dunlevon.

I also just obtained a copy of U 43's KTB (war diary).

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest bonza]

Michael

Not being too pedantic, the Merchant Marine crew may have been retained, perhaps supplemented by RN RNVR etc personnel. From another thread it may appear that this applied to the Stonecrop.

Q-ships had a devestating effect on Australia during WW11. The German Raider Kormoran sank HMAS Sydney off Western Australia. The entire crew of 645 perished, the wreck has never been located, and the affair remains one of the most contoversial in our History.

Regards

Pat

The Q is supposed to derive from the International Code Q signal, What Ship? used to ask ships for their identification. Sentries in land forces often asked for Quivvie, supposedly French for something like "who goes there".

[larneman]

Thanks to both of you for all that great information. Strange what stories are connected to the names on a War memorial that I passed by nearly every day for the first 24 years of my life without wondering. Now 30 years after leaving my home town and the Memorial, I am glad I re-started this task.

Thanks,

Liam

[Michael Lowrey]

From the KTB (war diary) of U 43, my translation, TIF-file (1.1MB file) of original available on request:

18.9.1917

11:15am Steamer in sight, steering 60°

11:35am Dived, began underwater attack

2:00pm Double shot from torpedo tubes V and VI (S.A.V. and G6 A.V. torpedoes). (Note: these were the two stern tubes on U 43. The ocean going boats of the U-series carried mixed loads of torpedo types.) Hit forward. Unusually strong detonation like a depth charge in close proximity. This can only be explained by both torpedoes exploding simultaniously. English tanker

WINONA

2085 grt, bridge forward still on the back, 3 masts, 1 funnel astern on the superstructure, wireless, 1 75mm gun (stern) visiable.

3:35pm Steamer sinks. Lat. 56°46'N, Long. 11°4'W.

3:45pm Surfaced. Crew of steamer consists of at least 100 men (3 full boats of each about 20 men, rest in water clinging to debris). From this and the message received from a U-cruiser in the following night warning of a Q-ship tanker "Winona" in location (coded map reference), it is concluded that sunken steamer was a Q-ship. Larger caliber guns were completely not visiable. Double shot used as vessel appeared larger and was a tanker. (Note: firing two torpedoes at a single target was extremely rare in WWI.)

(All time references would be in German time.)

Best wishes,

Michael

[Guest bonza]

Liam

Question from left field.

I jist love Johnny Cash. A favourite is "40 shades of Green" to see which he'd "walk from Cork to Larne". It mentions breezes sweet as shalamar,

What is shalamar, any ideas please

Pat