Albert Cartledge Fowkes 8th Royal Scots and Notts & Derby

[Medaler]

Hi,

I am attempting to research this soldier buy am drawing blank after blank. His story just does not make any sense to me. So where shall I begin?

He died of Influenza on 6th November 1918, at home (in this case, actually at his home address and not just in Blighty) and with a civilian occupation of "Gas Stoker" on his death cert. He is however buried with a CWGC headstone marking his plot.

He was married as a civilian in 1915.

Having searched both TNA and Ancestry he does not seem to have an MIC

I have also not found him on the SWB roll, Service records or Pension records on Ancestry.

So, he looks like a conscript to me. His number with the Sherwood Foresters was 33667 and his number with the Royal Scots was 335368 which seems to put him in D Company of 1st/8th after the March/April renumbering of the Territorials in 1917. There is no sign of an earlier service number with that regiment so it seems he must have joined them after then - but they did serve overseas so there should surely be an MIC?

I have tried to date both of those service numbers via SWB rolls but there seem to be very few numbers anywhere near his , and those that are have enlistment dates "all over the shop".

If you have stuck with this tale of woe so far - thanks!

So, what am I after?

Well, having established nothing, I suppose anything would be welcome! - I can't get over the suspicion that he was invalided out and therefore is just missing from the Ancestry version of the SWB rolls, so if anyone has another means of finding an entry for him that would be truly appreciated - even if no positive result can be found.

Other than that, any tips or pointers about dating those service numbers, establishing which Btn of the foresters he was with, confirmation of my thought that he was with 1st/8th and not 2nd or 3rd/8th of the Royal Scots.

Maybe, if somebody is kind enough to pick this up, I may get a better idea of what I want to know as the thread evolves. Any and all help would be appreciated as I am struggling with this one!

Regards,

Mike

[BillyH]

Mike,

Sometimes NA has a medal card that Ancestry doesn't have, but I can't find a medal card for him at either.

It would seem most likely that he didn't go abroad?

BillyH.

[BRONNO]

I can try and help you a little on this one but this is all the information I have on this soldier.......he enlisted on the 20th January 1916 aged 26 years 8 months and joined the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Sherwood Foresters a training/holding Battalion on the 8th February 1916. (see The Long Long Trail)

He was later posted to the 2/8th Battalion Royal Scots on the 14th April 1916 with new number 335368, I don't know what he did or where he served after these dates.

Born at Barrow Hill near Chesterfield, that's all I have on him. BRONNO.

[Medaler]

Bronno,

You have saved the day! - I can dig around where he went now I have a battalion to follow.

Those dates are excellent - would you mind telling me where you obtained them? - it may help me with more of these later soldiers that I have little experience with. That posting to 2/8th is interesting as it completely blows my post territorial renumbering theory out of the water for that 335368 number. I had picked up a reference to the 8th Royal Scots being issued with the block 325001 to 350000 for their 1917 renumbering - which now looks to be inaccurate.

LLT gives the following about 2/8th.....

2/8th Battalion
Formed at Haddington in September 1914. Moved to Peebles in May 1915.
November 1915 : attached to 194th Brigade, 65th Division at Falkirk. Renamed 16th Bn until January 1916
Moved to Essex in March 1916, going on to Dublin in January 1917.
Disbanded in summer 1917.

For whatever reason, it looks like a military career did'nt work out for him but still leaves the mystery of a CWGC headstone for a civilian who died of the Flu. It must have been made worse by something during his service, unless he contracted the disease whilst home on leave and the civilian occupation on the death cert is a red herring.

Many thanks for you help Bronno - truly appreciated.

Mike

[BillyH]

Mike,

Bronno says that he transferred to the 2/8th Royal Scots in 1916, and they didn't go overseas (see Long Long Trail).

This adds to the likelihood that he stayed in the UK.

I would guess that about half of SWB's were for sickness rather than wounds, (TB was a very common cause).

Given that he enlisted and was resident in Chesterfield, then a trip to the local archives to see if there was anything in the local newspapers about his funeral might reveal more. He has a CWGC headstone so he may well have had a military funeral - and that makes it more likely that there may have been a report in the local newspaper.

BillyH.

[Medaler]

Hi BillyH,

That brings me neatly back to the SWB roll. As he is not on the Ancestry version, is there any other way of looking this up? - I seem to remember there was a CD Rom version of these records or, failing that, is the roll searchable elsewhere on the net?

The local archives have been looked at but nothing found so far. It may well benefit from another stroll down that particular avenue. The other question I have just thought of is if the CWGC might have any other information. I will chuck them an email.

This is unfortunate as, coming from a point where I know nothing, I am likely to move the goal posts on my questions as more info comes to light. Please do'nt interpret that as me wanting to sit back while other people do my research for me, but I think you can see the issues I am having with this particular soldier, and its not that I am not trying! - I just need help in knowing where to look.

Sincere thanks BillyH - and warmest regards,

Mike

[BillyH]

Mike,

I view SWB's on Ancestry but the NA have the originals, see :

http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/swbrecords.html

I had a look on Ancestry and I can't find one either. I think you had to apply for a SWB and perhaps he hadn't got around to it?

TB is still a possibility for his discharge, but I imagine that the Influenza given on his DC would have been the Spanish Flu and was probably just coincidental?

I would still favour him not having gone overseas, but getting in touch with the CWGC is worth a try. Best of luck.

BillyH.

[stevem49]

33664 has a SWB and enlistment date 22/01/16, 10th battalion, also a possible Derby Scheme man.

Have you checked the local papers?

Steve

[Medaler]

BillyH,

I agree about him not going overseas, the lack of an MIC on both Ancestry AND at TNA would seem to be a fairly certain indication of no entitlement. You do sometimes get them just for the SWB but I am not certain how much the lack of one can be taken as evidence that he never had one.

My hunch is Spanish Flu as well, it claimed one or two of the lads on the memorial I am investigating. In fact, we have another lad who died of flu that did not end up with a CWGC headstone so some sort of pre-existing lung condition that this chap either contracted in the army or was made worse by his service looks highly likely.

Again, my sincere thanks for helping with this. The aid I get from the members here is of vital importance in checking my sanity - which unfortunately needs doing on a regular basis!

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Medaler]

Hi Steve,

Once more I am in your debt. Yes, the local papers have been checked but there would be no harm in taking another look.

Can I impinge on you kindness a little further? as I have not found anything on Ancestry and their search engine on SWB's is not geared to use service numbers. Do you have his badge number? and any other details on him from the roll?

The possibility of Derby Scheme had entered my mind, but I had not got into that aspect yet.

This man is a real headache for me. Now we have him with a SWB for the Foresters but then turning up later with the Royal Scots.

Again, my sincere thanks Steve - and sorry if I am being a nuisance.

Regards,

Mike

[stevem49]

Sorry Mike, did not make myself clear - 33664 SWB showed that he was probably a Derby man and as Fowkes number was close, he could be also.

He is not on the N&D medal rolls so would I presume not on RS either.

I think that he may never have gone overseas and was still in the army when he died. He would then get a CWGC headstone.

Joined in 1916, never sent overseas and died whilst still serving fits.

2/8th were disbanded and absorbed into 194th Brigade which was I presume home service.

Always happy to help

Steve

[Medaler]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that extra help - Sorry, I had completely gone off at a tangent had'nt I ?

Death cert gives a civilian occupation and he actually died at his home address, so I reckon he was not still serving when he died. All the evidence (or lack of it) regarding MIC's points to him never going overseas. I still think a pre-existing lung complaint (aggrivated by his service) is what saw him leave the army and qualify for that headstone. The local papers have got to be worth another go.

Again, my sincere thanks Steve - much appreciated.

Regards,

Mike

[stevem49]

I 'left' the army but still got paid for three months - during that time I was still officially serving. If he caught Flu whilst in then he would qualify. I have seen death certs with civvy occupation given but I know they were still serving.

Steve

PS - I will be at the weekend at Barlborough 2/3 Aug with a 9th bn display.