Vitriol?

[emjayen]

Hi all,

Need the help of the forum members again.

Am researching the Battle of Festubert, 15-27 May 1915. Have come across accounts from soldiers of the Inniskillings and Leicesters who describe the Germans throwing 'Vitriol' from the parapets which burst into flame on contact with the ground and consumed some of the wounded.

Have Googled Vitriol and it describes it as sulphuric acid. I'm not a chemist, but can't see that bursting into flames on impact. From the description it doesn't appear to be a flamethrower, so I am tending to believe it may be some sort of Phosphorous grenade.

Paddy Griffith in his 1994 'Battle Tactics' talks of both sides experimenting with this type of grenade, but the timescale isn't clear.

Anyone aware of other instances of this type of weapon being used in Spring 1915?

Thanks for your help

Michael

[centurion]

Phosphorous would burn on contact with air - the "contact with ground" is odd some sort of sodium mix reacting to damp ground? Vitriol will cause severe acid burns but not burst into flames. Is there possibly some confusion - the wounded are found to be severely burned so it is assumed (incorrectly) that there must have been flames?

[emjayen]

Here is the quote from a L/Cpl in the Inniskillings:

'They kill some of our wounded and throw vitriol on others and burn them, and then laugh at the poor fellow’s agony. I have seen all this and also the vitriol bombs they throw at night after a battle to catch the wounded, who are unable to get to safety.'

And from the 2nd Leicester's account of the battle:

'The enemy threw from their parapet, some kind of fire grenade which burst into fire on impact with the ground'

Michael

[seaJane]

Looks like two separate things to me, although you are quite right about vitriol being sulphuric acid.

Phosphorus may be correct, igniting not on its own contact with the ground, but when that contact breaks the container holding it and lets in the air.

I am not a chemist or a weapons expect - only speaking from chemistry O level (1975) and from working with the pharmaceuticals element of a medical library (believe it or not dilute solution of vitriol was tried as a cure for scurvy.. )

[depaor01]

Blue vitriol is an antiquated term for copper sulphate, a salt of sulphuric acid. I've never heard of sulphuric acid bombs. Maybe someone else has.

[centurion]

Sea Jane has it I think. Two separate things conflated in the OP, Vitriol (Sulphuric Acid) has often been used since Victorian times for pretty vicious acid attacks on individuals and examination of news in the last year shows that it still is. Unfortunately as it is a common component in many industrial processes and products it has always been relatively easy to obtain. It would certainly cause burns if splashed onto the wounded. However Michaels two quotes are just that - two separate quotes one of which talks about vitriol and the other about fire bombs - there is nothing to suggest that these are one and the same thing. I suspect that there was no such weapon as a vitriol bomb but some depraved individuals throwing acid from bottles and beakers. Fire bombs and incendiary grenades there certainly were and I think one of those quotes is describing these but whether phosphorous or some other substance is difficult to tell.

[Luke0000]

Sea Jane has it I think. Two separate things conflated in the OP, Vitriol (Sulphuric Acid) has often been used since Victorian times for pretty vicious acid attacks on individuals and examination of news in the last year shows that it still is. Unfortunately as it is a common component in many industrial processes and products it has always been relatively easy to obtain. It would certainly cause burns if splashed onto the wounded. However Michaels two quotes are just that - two separate quotes one of which talks about vitriol and the other about fire bombs - there is nothing to suggest that these are one and the same thing. I suspect that there was no such weapon as a vitriol bomb but some depraved individuals throwing acid from bottles and beakers. Fire bombs and incendiary grenades there certainly were and I think one of those quotes is describing these but whether phosphorous or some other substance is difficult to tell.

Possibly metal cans...or tins...because of course they are metallic they would look like proper bombs/grenades...but how would it break on impact

Maybe they threw grenades which had a little tin of vitriol strapped on the side, the explosion being the igniting into flames, and then it would expose the vitriol and burn any people just outside of the blast radius

I dont even have a degree in chemistry (Nor a degree in anything, i havent graduated from school yet :3)

[centurion]

Possibly metal cans...or tins...because of course they are metallic they would look like proper bombs/grenades...but how would it break on impact

Maybe they threw grenades which had a little tin of vitriol strapped on the side, the explosion being the igniting into flames, and then it would expose the vitriol and burn any people just outside of the blast radius

I dont even have a degree in chemistry (Nor a degree in anything, i havent graduated from school yet :3)

Well if you do some chemistry sometime you'll find that sulphuric acid is not kept in tins as it would quickly eat its way through them - glass glass glass

[Luke0000]

Well if you do some chemistry sometime you'll find that sulphuric acid is not kept in tins as it would quickly eat its way through them - glass glass glass

K, so glass bottles attached to grenades.

Heypresto

[centurion]

K, so glass bottles attached to grenades.

Heypresto

No doesn't work the radius of damage caused by the grenade fragmentation would be further than the reach of the acid (which would in any case be spread thin) so why go to the trouble.

[Luke0000]

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/decouvertes/english_fusees_3D.html This is something very interesting at the page bottom

German fuse not meant to be fired...it was a 'decoy' in essence, it would be triggered then a corrosive liquid would destroy a wire, that would trigger a pin and explode...But if it was fired by accident...which is a simple mistake to make once it is out of its box, maybe from the shock of hitting the ground if there was a imperfection in the wire, it would snap, leading to the shell exploding, then also spreading corrosive liquid.

Sadly it does not say the corrosive liquids used within this shell...But 1 of the 4 liquids to be used, may have been Vitriol...

I stumbled across this by accident whilest looking for percussion fuses further up the page.

[centurion]

A similar acid based mechanism was used for fuzes used by German sabotage agents in the USA except that these were pure time fuzes intended to sink cargo ships once they had sailed. Once the acid had eaten away the retaining metal the fuze blew its charge. See The Dark Invader by Franz von Von Rintelen who ran the German sabotage operations 1916/17 in the USA. A number of ships carrying cargoes to the Allies are believed to have been destroyed by such devices.

[rsparso]

It's worth considering, from the perspective of the original quote, that the damage caused by acid is often referred to as a chemical 'burn' so quite consistent with the description. Now the delivery mechanism is another matter.

[centurion]

It's worth considering, from the perspective of the original quote, that the damage caused by acid is often referred to as a chemical 'burn' so quite consistent with the description. Now the delivery mechanism is another matter.

see post 2

[rsparso]

see post 2

Post 3 has a quote from a L/Cpl in the Inniskillings, "throw vitriol on others and burn them". No mention of flames.

[centurion]

Which was the point I had been making

[Radlad]

Wouldn't sulphuric acid be a fairly common substance near the front? I'm thinking lead acid batteries were available at the time. I know it was a later period but it was it's use that gave scalybacks their nickname

[Luke0000]

A similar acid based mechanism was used for fuzes used by German sabotage agents in the USA except that these were pure time fuzes intended to sink cargo ships once they had sailed. Once the acid had eaten away the retaining metal the fuze blew its charge. See The Dark Invader by Franz von Von Rintelen who ran the German sabotage operations 1916/17 in the USA. A number of ships carrying cargoes to the Allies are believed to have been destroyed by such devices.

How interesting

The fact of the small wire...if paint came off, or some paint was spilling and a mistake was made, a not meant to be fired shell might have been fired...Thus leading to acid burns...

The question still lies what the substance using in those fuses was, if its vitriol, i think we have the candidate...

PLUS 72 hour acid...gave me another thought, if they though they might only be able to hold it for afew more days, they might load the shell ready, but they suddenly hold better than they thought, only 1 thing for the shell, to fire it over at the enemy.

[Radlad]

How interesting

The fact of the small wire...if paint came off, or some paint was spilling and a mistake was made, a not meant to be fired shell might have been fired...Thus leading to acid burns...

The question still lies what the substance using in those fuses was, if its vitriol, i think we have the candidate...

PLUS 72 hour acid...gave me another thought, if they though they might only be able to hold it for afew more days, they might load the shell ready, but they suddenly hold better than they thought, only 1 thing for the shell, to fire it over at the enemy.

Acid fuses were not used in shells to be fired to my knowledge. they were made for use as Centurian says, for time delay demolition charges and booby traps. In any case, only a very small amount of acid is involved , certainly not much more than eye dropper amounts depending on the type of fuse. I still say that sulphuric acid for lead acid batteries would be available in reasonable quantities at the front , especially to signallers as batteries were used to power field telephones.

Shells are a red herring unless they were armed with acid fuses as booby traps just prior to evacuating a trench or gun

[Luke0000]

Acid fuses were not used in shells to be fired to my knowledge. they were made for use as Centurian says, for time delay demolition charges and booby traps. In any case, only a very small amount of acid is involved , certainly not much more than eye dropper amounts depending on the type of fuse. I still say that sulphuric acid for lead acid batteries would be available in reasonable quantities at the front , especially to signallers as batteries were used to power field telephones.

Shells are a red herring unless they were armed with acid fuses as booby traps just prior to evacuating a trench or gun

They werent meant to be fired

But presuming they put in a 72 hour 1 because they think they can only hold 2 days and abit, and they for some reason hold much better...they dont want to blow up themselves so have only the choice to fire it...thus spreading the acid

Of course if only tiny amounts are used then it wouldnt be successful

Possibly a canister...of acid, of course coated to prevent acid leakage...Might look liek a bomb, plus if its abit damaged it might smash easily?