Chris Boonzaier Posted 13 October , 2004 Share Posted 13 October , 2004 On the 16.08.17 the British broke through the positions held by the I.R.84 and the R.I.R.27 reaching the HQ of the 3rd Btln of the R.I.R.27..... Is there an off chance anyone knows which British Regt this was? Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred W Posted 13 October , 2004 Share Posted 13 October , 2004 Chris, A private Thomas Hibson Steel of the Loyal North Lancs Reg is said, in the local Nelson paper Sept 28 1917,to have won a DCM at Westhoek Ridge, Ypres, on the 11 August 1917. Does this help. By the way I haven't yet found his citation in the London Gazette. Can anyone help? Fred W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 October , 2004 Share Posted 13 October , 2004 Chris, I have no idea if this will help, for I do not know where the exact positions were of I.R. 84 en R.I.R. 27. Neither do I know where the Wilhelm Stellung was, or "Wupzaal" (a hamlet ?). Just this, from Chris McCarthy, Passchendaele - the Day-by-Day Account, 16 August 1917, p 46 - 47. Advancing in the area of Westhoek were the 8th Division (left) and 56th Division (right of it), from southwest to north east. The boundary line ran right through Westhoek. To the left of the Divisional boundary line was the 25th Brigade (of the 8th Div.), with 2/Royal Berkshires and to the left of them 1/Royal Irish Rifles, with 2/Lincolns in support. To the right was the 167th Brigade (56th Div.), with 8/Middlesex. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Just this, from Chris McCarthy, Passchendaele - the Day-by-Day Account, 16 August 1917, p 46 - 47. Advancing in the area of Westhoek were the 8th Division (left) and 56th Division (right of it), from southwest to north east. The boundary line ran right through Westhoek. To the left of the Divisional boundary line was the 25th Brigade (of the 8th Div.), .... To the right was the 167th Brigade (56th Div.), ... Aurel. I think McCarthy has forgotten about the 169th Brigade (56th Div.). It was this Brigade that was was at the divisional boundary at Westhoek, not the 167th (who were to the immediate south (or right, depending how you look at it) of the 169th). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Dave. Don't worry about looking up the Aussie's movements mate. Their Divisions weren't brought in until September 20. The only regiment they had was the 13th Light Horse who weren't used independently at that stage. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 I think McCarthy has forgotten about the 169th Brigade (56th Div.). It was this Brigade that was was at the divisional boundary at Westhoek, not the 167th (who were to the immediate south (or right, depending how you look at it) of the 169th). Dave, In my posting I did not mention 169th Brigade because according to McCarthy it was not near the Divisional boundary line. McCarthy does mention 169th Brigade, but to the right of 167th Brigade, which itself was right (or south of) the Divisional boundary line. On his map on page 46 (and the positions are consistent with the description on page 47) : - 8th Division had 23rd Brigade (left) and 25th Brigade (right) - 56th Division had 167th Brigade (left) and 169th Brigade (middle) and 53rd Brigade (from 18th Division) The boundary line went right through Westhoek. So to the left of the boundary line (Westhoek) was 25th Brigade, to the right was 167th Brigade. Is your info different, or do you have reason to believe that McCarthy switched 167the and 169th Brigades ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Dave. Don't worry about looking up the Aussie's movements mate. Their Divisions weren't brought in until September 20. The only regiment they had was the 13th Light Horse who weren't used independently at that stage. Pat Pat, I'm not sure I understand about the Aussies. What you say about them and 20 Sep will be right I guess, but I think we are talking about 16 August. Did I misunderstand something ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Aurel Previously a question was asked in which the identity of the Allied troops confronting a particular German Regiment was requested. As Australian units were in action in that area at the specified time, I suggested that the Australian Official History might give the identity of the opposing units. This particular question relates to August. Although September 20 is an extremely important date to the Australians, we would not expect Dave to know that it was the date on which the AIF first entered 3rd Ypres. My answer was to indicate that he could exclude the Australians from his search. Its just my funny way of writing, I guess All the best Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Thanks, Pat. I understand. And as a matter of fact I had thought indeed that maybe your posting to Dave was related to something unrelated. (That sounds odd !) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bonza Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Aurel I now realise that I should have addressed my answer to Chris not Dave. My previous answer had been addressed to Chris & included reference to my sister So my last answer was related to something very related. That's one each, now, so lets call it quits Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 In my posting I did not mention 169th Brigade because according to McCarthy it was not near the Divisional boundary line. McCarthy does mention 169th Brigade, but to the right of 167th Brigade, which itself was right (or south of) the Divisional boundary line. On his map on page 46 (and the positions are consistent with the description on page 47) : - 8th Division had 23rd Brigade (left) and 25th Brigade (right) - 56th Division had 167th Brigade (left) and 169th Brigade (middle) and 53rd Brigade (from 18th Division) The boundary line went right through Westhoek. So to the left of the boundary line (Westhoek) was 25th Brigade, to the right was 167th Brigade. Is your info different, or do you have reason to believe that McCarthy switched 167the and 169th Brigades ? Aurel. According to "The Official History of the War -Military Operations France and Flanders 1917 vol.II", the positions were as I described, both in the narrative and on the map for this day. Where did McCarthy get his info from? If it's from this source, then he's mixed the two up in error. (Then again, I suppose the OH can't be correct all the time! ) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 According to "The Official History of the War -Military Operations France and Flanders 1917 vol.II", the positions were as I described, both in the narrative and on the map for this day. Here's the section of map I refer to... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 I now realise that I should have addressed my answer to Chris not Dave. Wrongly accused again!!!! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Dave, So it appears that McCarthy and the Official History indeed disagree (See my attached map (sorry for the poor quality) taken from McCarthy, where 167th Brigade is just south of the divisional boundary line going through Westhoek). One of both must have switched 167 and 169th Brigades. Which one ? McCarthy's narrative is in agreement with his narrative (167th Brigade, containing 8/Middlesex, north of Nonne Bosschen ; and 169th Brigade, contaning 2/London Reg. going through Glencorse Wood). Did McCarthy just mix up the numbers 167 and 169 ? I don't think so, for the mother site confirms that 8/Middlesex indeed was in the 167th Brigade. The final verdict will have to come from the Regimental Histories and/or the War diaries. Question to initial poster Chris : What about "Wupzaal" (in your topic title) ? Is this a hamlet in the area ? Never heard of, and no sign of it on maps. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Hello, Wupzaal is app. the same as Eksternest. Regards, Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 So it appears that McCarthy and the Official History indeed disagree (See my attached map (sorry for the poor quality) taken from McCarthy, where 167th Brigade is just south of the divisional boundary line going through Westhoek). One of both must have switched 167 and 169th Brigades. Which one ? McCarthy's narrative is in agreement with his narrative (167th Brigade, containing 8/Middlesex, north of Nonne Bosschen ; and 169th Brigade, contaning 2/London Reg. going through Glencorse Wood). Did McCarthy just mix up the numbers 167 and 169 ? I don't think so, for the mother site confirms that 8/Middlesex indeed was in the 167th Brigade. The final verdict will have to come from the Regimental Histories and/or the War diaries. Aurel, Reading "between the lines" and using a variety of different sources, I now tend to lean towards the McCarthy version being correct. (Unless, (and it's not impossible), the line of advance for the 169th Bde was in a south easterly direction, rather than due east). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Hello, Wupzaal is app. the same as Eksternest. Regards, Jan Thanks, Jan. And comparing with another map : Eksternest + Wupzaal = Westhoek. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 14 October , 2004 Share Posted 14 October , 2004 (...) (Unless, (and it's not impossible), the line of advance for the 169th Bde was in a south easterly direction, rather than due east). Dave. Dave, 169th Brigade advancing in a southeasterly direction instead of due east ? Mmm... Bit unlikely I think. Because doing so they would move forward in a direction square with the divisional boundary line, and hinder the adjoining 53th (and 167th ?) Brigade on their right. And also because (according to McCarthy) after 169th Brigade reached Glencorse Wood (east from where they had advanced) "it was believed that the leading waves entered Polygon Wood" (northeast of Glencorse Wood.) Meanwhile I wonder if Chris can do something with all this information. (The mother site will tell him what battalions (regiments) were in the 25th Brigade and 167th Brigade. (Or, if McCarthy is wrong, but I don't think he is) the 169th Brigade. According to McCarthy : In the 8th Div. the 2/Royal Berkshires (and maybe 1/Royal Irish Rifles on their left), and 2/Lincolns in support, and in the 176th Division the 8/Middlesex and and the 1/London Reg. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 14 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2004 Croonaerts map seems to be spot on. I am researching Captain Burchardt, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 27th Reserve Infantry Regt. On the 16th august an attack broke through to his HQ and he ran out with a rifle, but was killed by a bullet to the head. The map in the Regt History shows pretty much the sector from Frezenberg down to Polygon wood. a small sector.... but the history also mentions "Eisernen Kreuz Wald" which I am having trouble placing... it must be a German name for one of the places on the map. All in all it was a big help and thanks to all who are posting on this thread. all the best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 15 October , 2004 Share Posted 15 October , 2004 .... but the history also mentions "Eisernen Kreuz Wald" which I am having trouble placing... it must be a German name for one of the places on the map. Chris, Did you notice that on Dave's map there is a place Iron Cross Rdt. (near Anzac Farm, 1 km north east of Westhoek) ? And as Iron Cross = Eisernes Kreuz ... ? And as it is in the area you are interested in ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 15 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2004 Hi Aurel, Thanks for your mail and reply, Of course.. how could I have missed it! It was staring me in the face there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 15 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2004 I would assume "my guy" was caught between the 23rd and 25th brigades then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 15 October , 2004 Share Posted 15 October , 2004 I would assume "my guy" was caught between the 23rd and 25th brigades then. I would not say 23th Brigade (too far north of Westhoek), but 25th and maybe also 167th Brigade. Westhoek (= Wupzaal) is right on the divisional boundary line separating 25th Brigade (north of it) and 167 the Brigade (south). Iron Cross Redoubt (= Eiesernes Kreuz Wald ???) is a little bit (= 100 meters) north of the boundary line, so where 25th Brigade advanced. (Sorry I have cut off the name when I scanned my fragment of the McCarthy map. It would have been in the top right corner. Maybe I'll make a new scan.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 15 October , 2004 Share Posted 15 October , 2004 Chris, New scan. Showing Iron Cross Redoubt. (Sorry for the poor quality. Taken from McCarthy. Someone no doubt must have a better quality.) >>>>>>>>> line = divisional boundary line, between 25th and 167th Brigade. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Holmes Posted 18 October , 2004 Share Posted 18 October , 2004 Hi Chris, in the history of the 2nd Londons it gives the 53rd Brigade attached to form a defensive flank on the right then right to left the 169th Brigade's London Rifle Brigade and the 1st/2nd Londons. On their left was the 167th Brigade with the 1st/1st Londons and the 1st/8th Middlesex with the 8th Division on their left. Hope this helps regarding the 56th Division. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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