Greek WW1 Bayonets - the Y 1903/1914

[trajan]

The Mannlicher Schonauer Y.1903 rifle demonstrated its capabilities during the Balkan wars, and Greece decided to go for a slightly modified version of this rifle, commissioned into service as the Mannlicher Schonauer Y1903/14 rifle. This had the same overall length of 1,226 mm (48.25 inches) as the Mannlicher Schonauer Y.1903, but was provided with a much longer and T-backed bayonet. As I understand it, only 50,000 rifles were delivered before August 1914, at which time Greece chose to be neutral (for three years eventually). Furthermore, large numbers of the Y 1903 and Y 1903/1914 were lost when the Greeks were routed at the end of the Turkish war of Independence, 1919-1922 (aka, the Asia Minor Campaign [Μικρασιατική Εκστρατεία] or Asia Minor Catastrophe [Μικρασιατική Καταστροφή – but more a fiasco from the point of view of the Greek army’s performance!]). There again, as I understand it, in 1927 Greece received some 105,000 new versions of the Y1903/14 rifle, which became known as Y1903/14/27 rifle, made by the the Societa Italiano Ernesto Breda, Brescia, in Italy - it is said possibly using captured parts and machinery or as agents for the Steyr factory.

More to the point, very little seems to be known about the longer and T-backed bayonets as originally ordered / intended for these rifles, and I confess myself somewhat bemused as to what is what insofar as these Y903/1914 bayonets are concerned. Some of these were newly made / ordered from Steyr, and some allegedly also from FN in Belgium, and I do know that some were certainly ordered from Simpson of Suhl. Accounts differ also as to what the original design was: some of these Y.1903/1914 bayonets are described as having an overall length of 64.3 and a blade of 52.2, others being 52.1 long with a 40. blade.

Well, Kiesling (2^nd edition, p. 289, no. 270) has an OEWG made example, shown below for reference purposes with an overall length of 51.2, and a blade length of 40.0, with an Austrian M95-type handle; a St.George and dragon mark on the pommel; the obverse side of the crossguard with a serial number; and an OEWG mark on the ricasso. To which we might add the evidence provided by the Simson bayonets - which never arrived in Greece, thanks to August 1914! These were re-hilted to become the ‘Bavarian S.1914’, and had an overall length of 53.2 and a blade length of 39.9 (I'll put one of these up in another thread). Added to which Kieseling shows (288, no, 665) what is a Y.1878 blade shortened and provided with the appropriate crossguard and an Austrian M.95 handle to give an overall length of 51.2, and a blade length of 40.0 (his p. 269 no. 635, again show for reference purposes below). And so, I would guess that the designated length for the original Y 1903/1914 bayonet was an overall length of 52.1 with a 40.0 blade. The one I show in colour below is one of these M.95 hilted versions, and apparently the right length, and is reproduced here for reference from http://www.hungariae.com/Mann03.htm

Those sources that quote an longer overall length of 64.3 and a blade of 52.2, would seem to apply to those Greek (and French) ‘Gras’ bayonets converted to fit the Mannlicher Schonauer M.1903 and 1903/1914 rifles, that is, the bayonets I have discussed previously as the Y 1878/1903/1914 bayonets (although strictly speaking, as some of these were original Gras bayonets, I guess they should be categorised as Y 1874.1903.1914!). These do have an overall length of about 64.6 and blade length of 52.

Finally, a reminder that – according to the sources I have - in 1927, the Breda factory supplied Greece with about 105,000 Y1903/14/27 rifles. The sources I have seen are indecisive - the Italian factory may have used repatriated Austrian parts and machinery, or might have just mediated on behalf of the Steyr factory to supply these rifles, but, whatever, these Breda bayonets were supplied with a long T-backed bayonet marked with the appropriate Italian stamp on the ricasso -last photograph.

Trajan

PS: for those interested in what weapons were used in the Turkish War of Independence, a continuation in some ways of WW1, see http://gunsmagazine.com/weapons-of-the-greco-turkish-war/ and http://gunsmagazine.com/exclusive-web-extra-weapons-of-the-greco-turkish-war-part-2/

[N White]

Compared to the Gras and conversions, the purpose built t-backs are rather diminutive. Also interesting is that while the spine on the Mannlicher is much thinner, it has nowhere near the taper of the Gras, and quite a different geometry to the point.

[trajan]

Compared to the Gras and conversions, the purpose built t-backs are rather diminutive. Also interesting is that while the spine on the Mannlicher is much thinner, it has nowhere near the taper of the Gras, and quite a different geometry to the point.

Ooooohhhh, you lucky so and so! Never seen one of those over here yet! Find me another and I'll see if I can trade you a converted Gras Y1878!

Is it marked? If a Steyr new-made then I have read that these ones have a star on the other ricasso.... How long is it?

And I'll do a post on those Bavarian conversions at some point - a mate on another forum has one.

[N White]

Not to get your hopes up Trajan, but that one is unfortunately an Italian. Still, it is most proper for my 1903/14/27.

[trajan]

Phew.... You had me there! I do wonder how many of the original ones were actually made - I have never seen a Y 1903/1914 in Turkey, whether an original or a convert from a Gras.

Julian

[trajan]

... As I understand it, only 50,000 rifles were delivered before August 1914, at which time Greece chose to be neutral (for three years eventually)....

... Some of these were newly made / ordered from Steyr, and some allegedly also from FN in Belgium, and I do know that some were certainly ordered from Simpson of Suhl. ...

... the Simson bayonets never arrived in Greece, thanks to August 1914! These were re-hilted to become the ‘Bavarian S.1914’, and had an overall length of 53.2 and a blade length of 39.9 (I'll put one of these up in another thread). ...

I never got around to posting an example of the Bavarian S.1914', but by chance today I found and reproduce here for reference this lovely photograph of examples on JPS's wonderful thread at: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?166857-German-WWI-issue-Bayonets

The top one is as is, the bottom two have had their handles re-designed so as to fit the Gew. 98.

Trajan