Help with bayonet and what value

[Ben3095]

Hi

I have a Pattern 1913 bayonet, stamoped with a W In a circle. US Marks on one side with flaming granade and on a leather biut at the back 1917 Jewell, can anyone tell me what it is and a value?

Cheers

[trajan]

A photograph would help but it sounds very much as if you have a regular Winchester-made bayonet P.1913 but one kept for US use. Does it have two parallel grooves on the grips? There are threads elsewhere about these on GWF, but a nice starting point is http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=203246&hl=winchester

I have no idea as to value, as I collect just to collect! But much depends on the condition, and as a guide, the last one I saw for sale in Sheffield UK was going for GBP 80 - but it did have the American hooks on the scabbard.

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

The W in a circle and flaming grenade will make it an American M1917 bayonet with its matching Jewel 1917 leather scabbard. They are nearly identical to the P1913.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Hi

I have a Pattern 1913 bayonet, stamoped with a W In a circle. US Marks on one side with flaming granade and on a leather biut at the back 1917 Jewell, can anyone tell me what it is and a value?

Cheers

NOT my field at all, but hang about, when you say you "have a Pattern 1913 bayonet" marked W in a circle, do you mean that the year pattern date on the ricasso is 1913? If it has US marks then I think the ricasso should be marked 1917 (or just possibly 1918). Either way, it would be nice to see a photograph, as some people (not me!) like studying those US of A inspection marks! See, e.g., http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=203246&hl=winchester

[sawdoc34]

From memory I think that the M1917 were marked 1917 over W inside a circle, whereas P1913 were marked 1913 with a line under it & month/year either side of line & W under that.

Also think that only the Remmington made M1917 bayonets were mistakenly marked 1918 but could be wrong as I am down in kent & hundreds of miles from the collection/reference books,

Aleck

[trajan]

From memory I think that the M1917 were marked 1917 over W inside a circle, whereas P1913 were marked 1913 with a line under it & month/year either side of line & W under that.

That's what I thought, which is why I was puzzled by the OP, and its reference to a 'P 1913 bayonet' with a W in a circle mark...

[msdt]

I agree with all of sawdoc's comments.

Ben, you say on the leather bit at the back. That sounds like you have a first pattern US scabbard which makes the bayonet more collectable.

If the scabbard is complete, this pattern had a leather tab riveted with 2 big rivets to a metal pad on the back of the locket. The tab has the US pattern wire hook at the top to fit their belts. The second pattern dispensed with the leather tab and the wire hook fits directly to the throat of the locket. Often US scabbards that have been with the Home Guard in WWII had either the tab cut off just leaving the metal pad, or for the second type the wire hook removed and sometimes also the metal bracket filed off from the throat (these changes so that they could fit British frogs more readily).

As an indication of value, I bought a M1917 Winchester at a fair 3 weeks ago. It is in good condition, as also is the type 2 US scabbard. I paid £70, which I thought was a reasonable buy.

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

That sounds like you have a first pattern US scabbard which makes the bayonet more collectable.

If the scabbard is complete, this pattern had a leather tab riveted with 2 big rivets to a metal pad on the back of the locket. The tab has the US pattern wire hook at the top to fit their belts. The second pattern dispensed with the leather tab and the wire hook fits directly to the throat of the locket. Often US scabbards that have been with the Home Guard in WWII had either the tab cut off just leaving the metal pad, or for the second type the wire hook removed and sometimes also the metal bracket filed off from the throat (these changes so that they could fit British frogs more readily).

As an indication of value, I bought a M1917 Winchester at a fair 3 weeks ago. It is in good condition, as also is the type 2 US scabbard. I paid £70, which I thought was a reasonable buy.

Cheers,

Tony

That price of GBP 70 fits with the one I saw and bought in Sheffield a year or so back - but with the second type scabbard with the hooks (and a Home Guard frog as well!). IIIRC he wanted GBP 80 but I got it for GBP 70 or 75...

Trajan

[msdt]

So you bought it, Trajan! The HG leather frog is worth a tenner on its own.

Some dealers do ask silly money for Winchester 1913 and 1917's. I don't think they are that rare, though obviously the Remingtons are much more common. Actually the 1913's seem harder to find. Maybe because they didn't come over from US stocks during WWII.

Cheers,

Tony

P.S. Am about to buy a camera, so you will probably see more posts from me!!!!!!!!!!!

[shippingsteel]

Here are a couple of pics to help illustrate some of the different variations that are found amongst these P1913 type bayonets.

On the left we have the standard Winchester date & pattern markings, on the right the US overstamped original British markings.

I don't recall ever having seen a Winchester made example with the US overstamps, in my experience they are always Remington.

Cheers, S>S