jay dubaya Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 This bayonet has been in the family for a long time, I know nothing of it's origins, the muzzle ring is between 19/20mm. Any help with identification would be greatly appreciated. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Will have to check when I get home - but certainly not a Turkish 1874! And equally certainly a mid-late 19th century Yataghan-type bayonet. I can't quite read the ruler, so if you let us know the blade length and overall length that will also help in the identification process! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 4 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Funnily enough Trajan it was seeing your post earlier today that reminded me of the bayonet above. Overall length is approx. 24 inches / 61 cm. Blade is approx. 18.5 inches / 49 cm. I'll have to dig it out as there are some markings which don't show in the photos (taken a few years ago) Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Nice bayonet, looks like a werndl to me. Is it surplus to requirements? Can find it a nice home with some of my austrian bayonets;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Nice bayonet, looks like a werndl to me. Is it surplus to requirements? Can find it a nice home with some of my austrian bayonets;) Hi Jay dubuya and Aleck, I think Aleck got it in one! A Werndl or variation thereof, but while the MRDiameter is best for a Model 1867, the square-ended fuller seems closer to a Model 1870, but that has a smaller MRD of 18.5. I don't think its a Model 1873 as that has a different push-button style Really not my field, and just going by what Kiesling has... And doubtless somebody will soon up and provide the right information! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Hi Jay dubuya & Julian, just tried to dig out my only Werndl to compare this 1 with but for the life of me I cant remember where the chuff I put it, all the austrian m1895s, m1888, m1912, lorenz & sabre are where tey should be but no sign of the werndl, bloody mystery Also got out some of the new additions to the german collection & the N marked brit scabbards/bayonets but having trouble posting them, always the same when I get back, someone has been on my laptop & screwed it up, not a happy camper Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Hi Jay dubuya & Julian, just tried to dig out my only Werndl to compare this 1 with but for the life of me I cant remember where the chuff I put it, all the austrian m1895s, m1888, m1912, lorenz & sabre are where tey should be but no sign of the werndl, bloody mystery Also got out some of the new additions to the german collection & the N marked brit scabbards/bayonets but having trouble posting them, always the same when I get back, someone has been on my laptop & screwed it up, not a happy camper Aleck Aleck, Good to hear you are back up north and in home, even if computer screwed up! Mine has snailbob on it - what's your problem???!!! BTW, the ones you sent me by e-mail - you want me to post them for you? Now, to the Werndl... Never seen one in the flesh, and know very little about them. It seems that there are quite a few variants? Jay Dubyaa, I can re-post and ask around on another forum if you like, but from what I know of the guys there, then I will need blade length and an accurate MRDiameter - blade thickness at the crossguard will also help (but not essential), as will any markings! From the little I know, the Austo-Hungarians ones are marked 'ANT.STRIBERNY' on the ricasso, and/or also the letters 'G', 'GA', 'GF', 'OE/WG', and the double-headed Austrian eagle... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 4 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Thanks for the replies fellas, so it's likely an Austrian Werndl 1870? I'll dig it out over the weekend and have a closer look at the stamps and measure up that muzzle ring. Another question is how did it end up with the family, is it likely to have been in use during the Great War and if so by who? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 Thanks for the replies fellas, so it's likely an Austrian Werndl 1870? I'll dig it out over the weekend and have a closer look at the stamps and measure up that muzzle ring. Another question is how did it end up with the family, is it likely to have been in use during the Great War and if so by who? Jon Hi Jon, In my opinion, it could well have seen use in WWI (by a unit of the Austro-Hungarian army)! The Germans certainly used everything they could get their hands on, including captured French Chassepot rifles and bayonets dating from the 1860's, and I have no doubt that the Turks were using their 1874 Martini-Peabody rifles and bayonets also in WWI, albeit in both cases, these were most probably mainly being used by reserve/depot/training/whatever units. I know you gave the basic measurements for this one above, but if you can get accurate ones and any other details, then - if you like - I'll be happy to post it where I know there are Werndl enthusiasts. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 April , 2014 Share Posted 4 April , 2014 It's certainly an Austrian M1870 version which looks to have been shortened. This was commonly done as the original full length was quite excessive. While they were originally designed to fit the Werndl rifle, later modifications did allow their use on other rifles, thereby extending their long career. An accurate measurement of the muzzle-ring will help to determine which rifle ... and blade-length measurement will confirm that it was shortened. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2014 Many thanks for the continued interest...Ok managed to get some more accurate measurements but you'll have to wait for the pics. Overall length 598mm, hilt length 130mm, blade length 468mm, ricasso 31mm, muzzle ring 18.5mm, crosspiece 98mm, spine thickness 8mm. The quillon is stamped R 59 over ??37 (?? could read 12) there is a #10 stamped just behind the muzzle ring (which is slightly open - less than 1mm). Will post pics when I get back to a pc, Cheers Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 April , 2014 Share Posted 5 April , 2014 So it is a very standard M1870 with original MRD still fitting the Werndl rifle, but with the regulation official shortening of the blade, which was reportedly done around 1878. The stampings on the quillon are the Austrian regimental markings ... something like the 59th Infanterie Regiment, with weapon number 1237 (but don't quote me on that) See the many photos on this page HERE to determine what weapons this particular unit may still have been using during the GW. Many interesting photos to look through. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 April , 2014 Share Posted 5 April , 2014 Jon, I told you there were Werndly people around who would help, but S>S>, I never suspected you to be among them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2014 Most excellent information fellas and graciously recieved. Very useful link also. It's good to have such a positive ID on this and just out of curiosity what was the original length? I do still wonder how the family came by this bayonet, my father remembers it as a small child and he was born 1929. A possible, if indeed the bayonet was in use during the GW could be a great uncle who served with the Green Howards in Galipoli, France and ended the war with the 9th Bn. in Italy. We do have a small number of other souviners thought to have been brought back from the battlefields by him so a plausable explination. It's good to have such a positive ID on this and just out of curiosity what was the original length? It's not very often I see this bayonet in the light of day, I hid it away over 20 years ago and I photographed it about 7 years ago which was the last time it saw the light of day until now and to be honest I don't like it. Perhaps it's time it found a new home, does the bayonet as seen have any monetary value? Once again I thank you all for your time and interest, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 April , 2014 Share Posted 6 April , 2014 ... and just out of curiosity what was the original length? I do still wonder how the family came by this bayonet, my father remembers it as a small child and he was born 1929. A possible, if indeed the bayonet was in use during the GW could be a great uncle who served with the Green Howards in Galipoli, France and ended the war with the 9th Bn. in Italy. ... does the bayonet as seen have any monetary value? According to Kiesling's 'Bayonets of the World', 2nd edition, the original bayonets (depending on the version) had a blade length of between 575 and 584 mm, and the shortened versions were about 475 mm - still pretty long! Yes, could well have been picked up in Italy! I have no idea as to value, though. But it looks a nice example, with its original leather grips and unit markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2014 The grips are pressed leather? I did wonder what material it was. Yep it's a long blade and now knowing that this one in particular was shortened by 100mm it must have been rather clumbersome to carry and add a fair weight to the rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 April , 2014 Share Posted 6 April , 2014 The only other bayonet in 'regular' military use that I know of that matched these Werndl's was the Turkish Martini-Peabody 1874, with a blade length of 575 mm... Stick either that or a Werndl on the end of a rifle and yes, quite a weight! Can't remember off-hand how much the Turkish 1874 weighs, but I'll try to post this later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 April , 2014 Share Posted 6 April , 2014 Yes the excessive weight was the reason for this model having such deep and square fullers - this special design was implemented as a 'lightening' measure.! Funny you should mention Italy, as I believe the obsolete Werndl rifles and bayonets were used by the Austrian Landsturm 'reserve troops' on the Italian front. Bayonet value is difficult, it's basically worth what you can get for it.! It's in fair condition with intact grips being a + but corrosion being a - ... so 50/100 quid max. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 7 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2014 Thanks once again fellas, I'll be weighing it tomorrow. If you know anyone on the lookout for a Werndl 1870 then you know where there is one cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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