trajan Posted 13 March , 2014 Share Posted 13 March , 2014 Most of the stuff I find is, well, to be honest, not in the best of condition and rarely of more than average interest (my Greek collection aside and especially my very rare unaltered Y 1903's!). But this one makes a break from the usual... So, an Enfield-made 1888, 10/96, with a scabbard that is also Enfield made and marked '98 or '99 (or just possibly 08 or 09). The bayonet has a right-hand side pommel marking, a single '5', and the scabbard throat piece is numbered '802', so certainly non-matching! But look at that nice little mark on the left-hand side of the pommel, close to the grip, and look at what was the earlier letter-marking on the scabbard throat piece... I leave it to the cognoscenti to make the final verdict as I post the first photograph! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2014 And here is the next one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2014 And finally, the last one... There seem to be small 'N' marks on either side of the throat, one of them partly obliterated by the '802' serial number... I think that this is a rather a rare and unusual find - a naval 1888 - but I leave it to you folks out there, for example, 4th Gordons, Jscott, sawdoc, sommewalker, Shippingsteel, etc., to verify - or send me into the (metaphorical) depths of despair... I am teaching mythology this semester and doing predestination this week (and ma-in-law here as well!), so I can take what the team thinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2014 I have just checked with Skennerton and Richardson, p.172, who say there were only about 575,000 P 1888 'Mk I 2nd types' made at Enfield. The scabbard frog stud, BTW, is not chequered as per S&R p. 172, but they seem to be referring to a specific Naval scabbard, approved 23 September with this refinement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2014 Interesting! Old Smithy, at http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1888%20and%201903.htm shows two Naval marked P 1888's, one with the same pommel mark as mine, both in WWII made scabbards(!), one certainly marked 1939, and adds: "these bayonets were used in the UK by Naval shore based troops during WWII". Well, no doubt about the scabbards being WWII period - but the 'N' markings on the bayonets? Pre-WWII or not? Trajan PS: Just seen that zephry4 has one like this on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194834&page=5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2014 ...the 'N' markings on the bayonets? Pre-WWII or not? So, has anyone an answer to this question? Are 'N' for Navy marked 1888 bayonets certainly WWII re-issues or doe nobody know? TIA, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 23 March , 2014 Share Posted 23 March , 2014 Hi Trajan, Surely they will be pre WW 1. Actually have just obtained one today, dated 10 '94, but the key thing about this bayonet is that on the opposite side of the pommel to the N stamp, it is marked R N B for Royal Naval Brigade. This article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/63rd_%28Royal_Naval%29_Division talks about the Royal Naval Division not having SMLE's, so I am assuming that my bayonet was stamped at the beginning of WW 1 when the R N B was formed for service on land. Cheers, TONY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 23 March , 2014 Share Posted 23 March , 2014 http://www.edgedweapons.nl/en/bayonets-for-sale/england-1800-1900/england-m-1888-mki-second-type-navy-marked-with-naval-pattern-mkiii-scabbard-detail Have a look at this one for sale. The Naval pattern scabbard is stamped up with the N as per the pommel, so this must date from before WW 1, can't quite read the scabbard date. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2014 Thanks for those links Tony! And your 10 '94 marked R N B for Royal Naval Brigade sounds very nice!!! I don't have a chance to look right now but I think Shipping steel put up something somewhere on how to identify scabbards that were made post-WW1 for re-issued 1888 bayonets - something to do with the type of locket? I have no doubt from the existence of these scabbards that P 1888's saw service in WWII, and presumably with harbour guards and the like, as Old Smithy indicates, but I would really like clarification on when the 'N' mark was done - i.e., is this a pre-WWI marking or was it added later? I guess a clue as to the latter idea would be an 'N' marked bayonet that has earlier army markings scrubbed out - but even that would mean nothing more than at some unknown date redundant army P 1888's were re-issued to naval units... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2014 ... I don't have a chance to look right now but I think Shipping steel put up something somewhere on how to identify scabbards that were made post-WW1 for re-issued 1888 bayonets - something to do with the type of locket? I think that this is what I was thinking off - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194834&hl=%20bayonet%20%20scabbards&page=4 See post 97 therein, where SS reported on shortened 1907 scabbards suitable for the P 1888, noting that you can tell the difference "...by the length of topmount, the size of the teardrop stud, and shape of the chape". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 28 March , 2014 Share Posted 28 March , 2014 Different bayonet, I know but I have an 03' with pommel marked RN khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2014 Khaki, that sounds a nice one! Will you post a piccie pretty please? Actually, it might even be a good idea to start a P 1903 thread?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 29 March , 2014 Share Posted 29 March , 2014 Hello Trajan, I certainly will endeavor to provide you with a photo asap, it may take me a few days as things are a bit hectic here right now khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 31 March , 2014 Share Posted 31 March , 2014 .Trajan as promised khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 April , 2014 Share Posted 1 April , 2014 2) another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 April , 2014 Share Posted 1 April , 2014 3) and another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2014 Nice one Khaki! I expect SS will have a few things to say on that one - he loves these re-issue marks on the UK bayonets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 April , 2014 Share Posted 1 April , 2014 Glad you enjoyed the pictures, regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 April , 2014 Share Posted 1 April , 2014 Additional information to photos, button side of pommel J P over 218 (number lined out) right side of pommel RN over 338 (small and below oil hole) over 251 (number large and lined out) blade Sanderson Sheffield Hope this is of some interest khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2014 As I said earlier, these ricasso markings are very much SS's forte, so let's wait to hear from him. They are nice though, and I like the clarity of that Sanderson mark! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 April , 2014 Share Posted 2 April , 2014 Not really a lot to add, but it is a nicely marked Sanderson who had their own unique marks. Looks like it was a newly made P1903 and not a converted type. It has the Sanderson Crown/S inspection mark, the Birmingham style Broad Arrow, and the uniquely styled Bend Test X ... all very different to Enfield marks. Also features 2 reissue markings in '07 and '08 with their matching inspection stamps. Can't really comment on the other 'unit' stamps without seeing clearly. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2014 Quite interesting, really, that issue history. Made in September 1903, reissued sometime in 1907, and then again soon after sometime in 1908 - can't help but speculate that this was because the unit then using it had just received the P.1907 bayonet? SS - is it usual or common or what for these earlier re-issue marks NOT to have the month indicated? IIRC, I have seen something like this on some other bayonets, which I think were P 1888's... Oh, yes, and Khaki, any chance of a better photograph of those pommel marks? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 2 April , 2014 Share Posted 2 April , 2014 Thanks I'll see what I can do, but I am using a cell phone camera, I was a bit disappointed that the crown ER which is very faint did not show on the photo. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2014 Thanks I'll see what I can do, but I am using a cell phone camera, I was a bit disappointed that the crown ER which is very faint did not show on the photo. khaki Not so much the crowned ER that's the problem, more the RN lettering... This is not my field at all - SS is the man for these - but the letters do seem rather large for a regular unit marking. The rest, the numbers, seem ok to me, as usual weapon numbers. It's just that RN marking that seems odd - and I would take the liberty to guess that's what A.N.Other might want to know more about. TTFN! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 3 April , 2014 Share Posted 3 April , 2014 I don't know if I can improve much on the pommel image, as it is sort of rounded and dark I found it quite difficult to capture even though I used a macro setting on my cellphone camera. It is what it is, and I cannot find anything about it re., the stamp RN, it may be a one off, it wasn't a particularly expensive blade so I am interested in it but not concerned about it, it does show age, consistant with all the other markings. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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