Another Cap Badge Recognition Please

[rally29]

Hi first post to the website which seems full of valuable information. My Great Grandfather served in the first world war and was captured on the 8th May 1917, he served with the East Surrey Regiment and the only war photo I have is a postcard from Cottbus 1in Germany taken by Paul Tharan. I have searched various books and the internet to identify the cap badge he's wearing. He was wounded when captured so the uniform must have been issued after recovering from his gunshot wound. He was awarded the SWB, Victory and British medals and his number was 17876. I never had the privilege to meet him but am trying to piece together information for my children etc so his sacrifice and so many others in my family is remembered in the future. Thanks for taking the time to look.

[simon2]

Cap badges isn't my area but I cannot find anything close. I am wondering whether as he

was captured it may be hand made as the centre looks like the union flag.

[rally29]

Thanks very much for looking, I had focused on the union jack but no results. Even tried an online shop for advice and still no joy. Perhaps POW's were given cap badges by nationality but if that was the case I would have thought it to be a well known practice. Thanks again.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Would the rest of the photograph give us any clues?

Dave

[Sepoy]

Rally29

Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy it.

Is there any chance you can post the entire photograph. I wonder whether he is wearing an early Volunteer Training Corps uniform or similar. Some units incorporated Union Flags on their badges, such as the Mitcham Town Guard (but that was a enamel circlet without a Crown). His cap chin strap is also very ornate.

It is certainly not a regular British Army Badge.

As for Prisoners of War, I am certain that some prison badges were issued and worn by men who had lost their original Regimental Badges, but I have never handled one in the flesh, although I do have some photographic evidence of this.

Sepoy

[rally29]

Hi thanks both for replying I am attaching full photo. I will also post another after the war although not in uniform but may have a clue. Many thanks again, am I the only one who is annoyed I didn't get more information when I was younger. My parents have no interest in this and are completely useless. Thanks...

[rally29]

Post war with SWB.

[Sepoy]

Rally 29

Thank you for adding the full photographs, which frankly, raise more questions than I can answer.

I suspect that the first photograph was taken just after Thomas Piper enlisted in November 1915 using a Photographer's prop cap with a "patriotic badge" added. It is the fact that the peak has been "slashed" (like a Guardsman) and has a "woven" chin strap, makes me question whether it his issue cap. An East Surreys' RSM may have had a few words!

Equally, if you look at the badge close enough you can see the outline of a King's Crown just behind the displayed badge!

Or Is this the photograph taken in Germany?????

The second photograph is a typical "family" style photo taken in 1919 or early 1920's with Thomas wearing his Silver War Badge (number B262875) issued in 1919.

Sepoy

[rally29]

Hi thanks for the reply. The photo was taken in Germany at Cottbus 1 POW camp between 1917 and 18. He was shot before taken prisoner which makes me think this is not an original uniform or cap. Many thanks for the information and help.

[Sepoy]

May be it is a "Prisoner of War" badge.

Here are two photographs which, I believe, show "Prisoner of War" cap badges being worn, whilst others wear their original British Regimental Badges. The person marked with an X is Private Arthur Allison, Royal Marine Light Infantry, who was captured during the retreat fro Antwerp in October, 1914. He was reported in the Times as being held at the Doeberitz Prisoner of War Camp, Bavaria.

It would be interesting to know whether PoWs did produce, or were issued with, "PoW Camp" badges.

Sepoy

[rally29]

Hi thanks for the reply, fascinating pictures. I could look at pictures all day every day so annoyed that as a young man i didn't ask more and the fact my family have kept so little. It would be interesting to know if they produced cap badges, i did try google before on this and got nothing. Surely a large number of POW's wounded would have been without clothing of some sort, was a program in place through the red cross to cloth these troops? thanks again for looking, trust me to get the weird ones.

[FROGSMILE]

I have heard of and seen images of such PoW issued cap badges before, but not learned how their issue was organised. I imagine that the Imperial War Museum will know.

[rally29]

Thanks I will try them.

[FROGSMILE]

I can definitely see the union flag, seemingly enamelled in the centre of the badge.

[FROGSMILE]

I have quite a few photographs of PoWs wearing German issued badges in their caps. They usually appear to be square or rectangular in shape and appear to have the PoW's prison camp issued number stamped on it. Other PoWs seem to have worn shoulder titles to replace lost cap badges.

Yes I have seen that too and even the use of brass numbers, presumably of the same type as used to indicate TF battalions. However, the type of badge seen in the inititiating post of this thread also seems to be commonly encountered. It has a distinct shape and a union flag in the centre. I wonder if it came with 'comforts sent from home, or was issued in some way by the War Office. The former seems more likely to me.

[rewbarbel]

Have you tried The British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum? There is a wealth of knowledge on there. http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/index.php

Good luck,

Andy

[rally29]

Thanks Guys I will try that.

[FROGSMILE]

Several of the men in both group photos are wearing the same badge (i.e. with the central union flag) in addition to their regimental or other insignia, usually above it.

[Sepoy]

On closer inspection of both the group photographs there are two types of "Prisoner of War" Badges, instead of the one I had previously noted. Frogsmile is correct that one pattern is very similar in shape to the badge being worn in the original posted photograph.

The first close up shows the badge I had previously noted, which is being worn in both photographs. The second photo shows a badge similar in shape to the original post, which is being worn by several soldiers including Pte Allison in the second group photo.

Neither badge shown here are standard Regimental badges.

Sepoy

[rally29]

Thanks again you have given me plenty to go on.

[Khaki]

I may be way off the mark, but the 'badge' somehow looks superimposed and does not sit well on the cap as a regular badge should, perhaps it is POW 'camp made' out of wood or cardboard and painted??

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

I may be way off the mark, but the 'badge' somehow looks superimposed and does not sit well on the cap as a regular badge should, perhaps it is POW 'camp made' out of wood or cardboard and painted??

khaki

They are remarkably consistent to be made of wood and painted. The largest view shown with the plaited chin strap makes wood seem unlikely, but I think it shows the design very well. There is an order of the garter type strap with buckle at base, a union flag in the middle and surmounted by a crown.

The Imperial War Museum are absolute experts on WW1 and have a huge range of memorabilia much of which is not on display. It is well worth a visit or a letter with the large photo enclosed for a badge specialist to examine.

My strongest guess (gut feeling) is that they were sent out from home in some kind of comforts parcel that early in the war the Germans were remarkably tolerant about. Many town and city corporations ran 'comfort funds' and they often contained patriotic messages along with their contents, along the lines of 'we are thinking of you, you are not forgotten'. An enamelled badge might well have been included in one of these. The concept seems very similar to some of the 'Pals' battalion lapel badges like, e.g. The Cardiff battalion.

[Muerrisch]

Fascinating indeed.

Of course the maintenance of discipline and morale in the PoW camps was very important and a unifying [uniform!] cap badge would be an outward manifestation of pride and order.

A strong and fatherly RSM figure was also important, as anecdotal evidence of RSM Lord [WWII] confirms.

Born at Southport, Lancs. and at one time a Brighton policeman, he dropped with the Airborne Forces at Arnhem, was captured and taken to Stalag XIB. How he maintained the traditions of the Guards in the prison camp was told in 1945. He defeated chaos, misery and boredom and restored a smoothly running organisation, strict discipline and the exacting Guards' standard.

When a party of officers paid the camp its first visit on the day of liberation they found a guard which was faultlessly turned out and which "could have gone on duty at Buckingham Palace and done credit to its corps."

Then a majestic figure appeared, the R.S.M. himself. Gleaming brass, immaculate webbing, razor-edge trouser creases, dazzling boots, a spectacular salute.

Daily inspections and guard mounting, most unpopular when introduced, had restored a great measure of the prisoners' waning self-respect and revived their military bearing.

All who could stand had to parade for P.T. This drastic effort of R.S.M. Lord to build up sinking reserves of strength must have saved the health of hundreds and perhaps the lives of some, it was stated at the time.