Greek WWI bayonets - the Y 1878

[trajan]

Seeing how so little seems to be known amongst GWF members about the bayonets used by the Greeks in WWI it was suggested that I write something on these for your consumption and, perhaps, jollification and edification(!). Mind you, I cannot and would not claim to be THE expert on the topic, but I have seen (and collected) quite a few of these items over here, and have managed also to get hold of a reasonable amount of the available data on these items – but I am always happy to be corrected, if preferably with references! My main published source has been an inter-library loan copy (now returned) of C.Z.Sazanidis, Ta opla ton Ellinon…(1821-1922) which translate as The Arms of Hellenes…(1821-1922): yes, in Greek, but with English captions to the photographs… Well, my ancient Greek is better than my Modern Greek, but not by very much! There again, I have learnt an enormous amount about this subject from subscribers of the GBF, if most especially from their member JPS and Hellasbayos.

Best to start with the Greek Y 1878 (‘Y’ for Model) bayonet. I have not – I admit – seen any photographic or documentary proof that these were used by the Greek army in WWI. However, they were still in Greek army use in the 1919-1922 Greco-Turkish War (aka, the Turkish War of Independence), and so were certainly around in Greek military hands during WWI. This type of bayonet is a relatively common find over here, some possibly being captures during the Greco-Turkish War of 1897, others during the First Balkan War of 1912-1913, and a few perhaps during that fiasco of 1919-1922, when Greece attempted to capture all of western Anatolia…

What do we know about these? Well, in 1878 Greece contracted with OEWG Steyr for a Steyr-made version of the French Gras 1874. I assume that this was in response to the Ottoman adoption of the Martini-Peabody Model 1874. These OEWG Steyr-made Gras rifles are referred to in Greek army manuals as the Y 1878 rifle, although the receivers were marked by Steyr as “Y-1874”. The original and the later contract Y 1878 bayonets are identical to the original Gras 1874 bayonets in all major respects, except two: they are marked “Waffenfabrik Steyr 1878” on the spine in the same cursive script as used on the French bayonets; and they have four-figure serial numbers on the left side between the crossguard rivets, as in the first photograph below. I have also seen some of these Y 1878 bayonets with two letters stamped on the right side between the rivets - in two examples certainly ‘AD’, as in the second photograph. I assume that these are Austrian inspection marks as they are in ‘Roman’ not Greek letters. As far as I have been able to learn, the initial order in1878 from OEWG Steyr was for 60,000 or so rifles and that by 22 March 1886, the date of the last recorded order, OEWG-Steyr had supplied some 118,000 total of the Y 1878 infantry rifles.

In 1903, the Greeks contracted with OEWG Steyr for a new rifle and bayonet, which will be the subject of a future thread. It would appear that by that time but quite possibly later (i.e., after 30^th June 1917, when Greece declared for the Allies), the Greek army received a supply of French Gras rifles and the bayonets to go with them. It could be earlier and a knock-on effect of the adoption in France of the Lebel rifle in 1886, and this seems to me to be more probable. All that can be said for certain is that there is a number of standard French Gras 1874 bayonets with the usual French markings but four-figure Greek-style numbers between the rivets on the left side, as in the third photograph. In every example of these that I have seen the French serials have been scrubbed off, sometimes the inspection marks also (but not in this case), although the French manufacturers name on the spine has been left as is.

Before concluding, I should repeat that I honestly don’t know all there is about Greek bayonets, so feel to correct me where necessary!

Trajan

[N White]

Speaking as a Gras collector, the Greek bayonets tend to be less common, and are invariably much more beat up than French examples. Just as with the French, the years on the spine will vary. I see 1878 often, but here is a shot of my Greek example, a worn and pitted, but still legible 1881.

[trajan]

Thanks Nwhite,

And I thought it was just me who was finding beaten-up Greek Gras...! Yes, the spine markings on the Waffenfabrik ones I have seen and/or own are often near illegible, the average quality being like yours. I have only seen one good example over here of a Waffenfabrik spine marking and that one had a really horrible grip missing its L-spring!

Trajan

[trajan]

I have managed to find a reference to Sazandis’ book confirming that Gras rifles were in Greek military service at the outbreak of WWI. If I understand this reference correctly then the Greek Royal Army had 77,000 of them at the time, all of these in the standard 11mm calibre, and so these were not the modified type (to be discussed in another thread) introduced at a later date to fit the 6.5 mm calibre Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1903/14 rifle.

[jscott]

Interesting thread Trajan, thanks for starting. I know nothing at all about the Greek involvement in WW1, but always keen to learn. I don't know how you stick with bayonet collecting given the ludicrous prices they seem to be charging in Turkey!

[trajan]

Interesting thread Trajan, thanks for starting. I know nothing at all about the Greek involvement in WW1, but always keen to learn. I don't know how you stick with bayonet collecting given the ludicrous prices they seem to be charging in Turkey!

Thanks jscott! It is a rather interesting story about Greece and its slowness to get involved WWI, which I won't go into here, but which becomes especially intriguing given how often Greece and Turkey were in combat either directly or indirectly in the years leading up to 1914!

Yes, bayonet prices in Turkey often continue to be ludicrous, and my deepest dearest does keep an eye on my spending, which limits me somewhat, but the odd bargain does pop up along with several crazies. E.g., somebody right now is asking TL 1,500 = about GBP 480 for a shortened 1890 in a shortened 1890 scabbard, a rare find, but considering that another seller who is asking the same price for his even rarer and excellently preserved 1890 in a full scabbard in perfect condition has not sold that in three months you would think the first guy might realise he is asking way too much! Fortunately I have managed to pick up examples of both, the one for about GBP 80, the other for about GBP 120 - which is still more than I would expect to pay in the UK or USA!

Trajan

[jscott]

I would bite your hand off for a good p1890 with scabbard for £120! thats a great find. £480 on the other hand...

[trajan]

I would bite your hand off for a good p1890 with scabbard for £120! thats a great find. £480 on the other hand...

Mind you, while GBP 120 don't sound a lot it is when you get a Turkish salary - plus wife and two monsters aka as my sons!!! Anyway, scabbardless 1890's pop up every two to three months so I can keep an eye out for one if you are interested.

[msdt]

Hi Trajan,

Pics of an 1878 I have. This one has an interesting stamp in the same place as the AD above. Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

Very nice indeed! And with matching numbers! I haven't been keeping a check-list of the monograms on the crossguards, but all the ones I have seen have all been done using regular letters, not the fancy script you have on yours, which almost looks like a German 'fraktur' mark...

[trajan]

... These OEWG Steyr-made Gras rifles are referred to in Greek army manuals as the Y 1878 rifle, although the receivers were marked by Steyr as “Y-1874”. ...

Finally found a photograph of one of these Steyr 'Y 1878' rifles, showing the marking 'Y 1874', so I thought I'd share it for reference.