Shortened Lebel Bayonet to make Stiletto knife

[ServiceRumDiluted]

I mentioned this acquisition on another thread and in response to some interest here are some pictures of a Lebel bayonet very finely cut down to make what I presume is a trench knife.

I've pictured it next to a regular Rosalie for comparison. The overall length is 44cm, the blade length is 33cm. The point is very well made and smooth and is either factory made in that length or very professionally ground down. All attachments have been removed and no markings are present. The top of the handle is quite roughly finished where the channel has been filed away.

I have no provenance for this and am aware it could have been modified at any time in the last hundred years, any info would therefore be appreciated. It came with a full length standard scabbard, but that may be irrelevant.

Thanks,

Diluted.

[trajan]

That point certainly looks like this is one of the German modified versions and the blade length is about right. I am busy getting classes ready for tomorrow but when I get a change I'll chip in with further details.

Trajan

[trajan]

Well, second quick looks suggests that this has been converted into a trench knife by removing the muzzle ring, etc., from a German modification of a Lebel bayonet that was officially designated the Seitengewehre 103(f), and which was officially 46 cm overall with a blade about 36 cm. I need to check my more detailed notes in the office, but the give away with this one is the 20 degree or so angle given to the point.

Nice (and nasty!) find! Hope you don't get stopped by Mr.Plod with that in the car! Mind you, I suppose you could argue that you needed it for rock-climbing...

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

The very nature of the Rosalie's epee blade meant they were liable to snapping, so you can find examples that have been 'recycled' of any particular blade length.

I believe the closest official modification to your stated blade length of 33cm, would be the common French shortening of the Lebel to a blade length of about 34cm.

Once the blade has been professionally cut down for further service, then it is only a small step to remove the guard and grind down the remainder of the brass grip.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

I take your point SS, and I have seen it written in a few places that the French regularly shortened broken Lebel bayonets to a length of about 34 cm - but I have not been able to find a French source to confirm this, and would appreciate a reference if you know of one!

I have certainly not come across any mention of this practice in Adam, et al, Les Baionettes militaires francaises, which I have always taken to be the standard French work on bayonets (well, it is approved by the 'Association Francaise des Collectionneurs de baionettes'!). OK, my French is not the best, and I may have missed something in the text, but there are certainly no photographs of an officially modified bayonet like this. The closest they have Lebel-ese to anything of this length is the Indo-China version, of 1902/1912, specifically made with a length of 39 cm (I gather from the caption because of the shorter mousquetons used in Indo-China by the Indo-Chinese soldiers and/or because of their shorter height!); and the shortened Lebel introduced in 1935, at 40 cm - and which as far as I can gather from the caption was armourer-made from existing standard (not broken) Lebels.

That does not mean, of course, that the French army or individual members thereof did not go around cutting down broken Lebel bayonets to a standard length of about 34 cm, I am just pointing out that I have never seen a reliable French reference to this as an official practice. And surely, only an official order would account for a standard 34 cm or so length...

But Ockham's razor...!!! There IS a well-attested and documented German programme for cutting down Lebel bayonets to a length of around 34-35 cm, and quite specifically providing these with this 20 degree cut to the blade point, as opposed to the more gentle original Lebel point. These modifications were officially designated the Seitengewehre 102 (f), for the shortened Lebel with quillon, and the 103 (f) for the quillon-less type, which I assume that this one is (was!), given its 'brass' handle. These bayonets were provided with a shortened Lebel scabbard, 36.2 cm long, which kept the Lebel staple-like frog stud, and so were given suitably-modified German frogs, and which, being shortened from the bottom up, apparently had the original ball finial replaced with a plano-convex one.

Mind you, I forgot which forum I was on, and these German versions were introduced in WWII, apparently for French police issue, and so - sorry mods! - strictly speaking they are not relevant here... But even so, the data might be of use to other GWF members so I thought it worthwhile to elaborate! Either way, this is an interesting item with what would seem to be an interesting history - from French to German use, and then a conversion into a nasty little weapon!

Trajan

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi Diluted,

The best reference I know for these is "les couteaux de nos soldats" by G. Lecoeur and R. Rouquier published in 1987. Briefly, unlike the Germans, the French were very short of suitable trench knives once trench warfare developed. Broken Lebel bayonets were utilised to make what are described as "le poignard de fortune" meaning makeshift or rough-and-ready dagger. I don't presently have time but if you search the internet under "le poignard de fortune" you may come up with something.

Initially, the manufacture of your type of dagger was done by individuals using broken bayonets picked up on the battlefield. There are several types illustrated in the above-mentioned book. One type still has the quillon, etc. whereas another type is in the style of your dagger. The cottage industry making these daggers developed into the official patterns - les poignards de Chatellerault - with wooden grips, etc.

I'm afraid I can't comment on whether or not your dagger is a WW11 conversion. If you send me an email I will try to send you a copy of a couple of pages from the book I mention.

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

That's very interesting to know! Thanks for that ref to "les couteaux de nos soldats"!

I did ggggooogle "le poignard de fortune" and it brought up one French site selling what they said was a trench knife converted from a Rosalie (= Lebel), but it was actually using the blade of a Gras...!!! So, yes please, I'd like a scan of those pages also if possible! I have only one of these shortened jobs, still with crossguard, which I have listed as German given that the length does tie in with the German regulation. I guess with this one and others that are similar what we need is the missing scabbard, as the German specifications seem to be quite specific on the need for a plano-convex finial...

Trajan

[Michael Haselgrove]

Trajan,

Try this site: http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t263p100-les-poignards?highlight=couteaux+de+tranch%E9e which is very near the beginning of all the results when I searched for "le poignard de fortune".

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

Many thanks Michael! Did you see this one on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207480 - that fits the biscuit for these contemporary French ad-hoc jobs!

Thanks again,

Trajan

[Michael Haselgrove]

Trajan,

No - thanks for drawing my attention to it. The "badge" set into the hilt is, I think, actually a French button. By the way, there looked to be an

interesting book advertised on one of the pages on the forum mentioned in my last post.

If you send me an email I will send you a photo (our scanner doesn't seem to work) of the relevant pages of the book I mentioned.

Regards,

Michael.

[trajan]

If you send me an email I will send you a photo (our scanner doesn't seem to work) of the relevant pages of the book I mentioned.

Thanks - I'll do a PM after finishing cooking dinner... We have scanner problems too but what is worse is that 2 years ago our now-5 yr old managed to flip the keys on our keyboard for the space-, caps-, and return-keys, and also the letters S, M and A, and the number 4... We just have the pressure nipple for those ones... Takes ages to get anything written and then all has to be corrected with spaces added...

[Michael Haselgrove]

Trajan,

I know the feeling! By the way, I checked and, if you are interested, "les couteaux de nos soldats" (2nd edition) is available for about 30 euros.

Regards,

Michael.

[ServiceRumDiluted]

Thanks all for your replies, very interesting. The real story will never be known but it looks like its an amateur conversion to the handle of a professional conversion to the blade. Whatever the dates, I regard it as an interesting item, which is a reminder that these things were designed and modified to kill, well worth the modest sum paid.

[trajan]

if you are interested, "les couteaux de nos soldats" (2nd edition) is available for about 30 euros.

Thanks for that Michael! I'll get the univ. to order a copy - the librarian for some reason or another seems to approve my pastime and extra-curriculum interests! And it'll send you sending a copy of those pages!

Best,

Julian