calibre792x57.y Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 Hi TonyE. I have recently acquired a Type 38. The Chrysantheum has been partially obliterated by stamping the edges with a letter punch 'o'. The tang behind the breech is stamped 'E' over a Broad Arrow over '2'. The barrel form is likewise stamped but with '5' instead. The side of the butt is stamped with the double broad arrow 'sold out of service'. The receiver has the Nagoya Arsenal Mark (Upside down 8 in a circle) and 45381 on the left side. The underside of the butt is stamped 93/968. No unit marks. For your info and any comment to enlighten me. Would this have been a Navy rifle? Despite having been deactivated ( not me!) it is in excellent condition with traces of old grease. Only the cleaning rod is missing. Wish I still had one of my Type 30 British marked bayonets but long gone - I did try and PM you but I think your box must be full. SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 Sorry, my mail box was full but I have cleared it now. Your serial number is very low for a British Type 38 based on the surviving examples I have logged, the lowest being in the 600,000 range. However, all but two of those have been army rifles, most regimentally marked. The Royal Navy rifles were the first batch of 50,000 that were originally destined for the French and we know very little about the serial numbers of these, so it is entirely possible you have one of them. I have not seen the "Sold out of Service" mark on an Arisaka before as the great majority went direct to Russia as you know. It seems that the few (17,000) left in store at the end of the war ended up in Finland after it is believed they were sold to Soley. I have no idea whether they were marked in that way. It is another small piece of information that adds to the overall picture. A shame you no longer have the bayonet though! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 I don't wish to throw the spanner into the works here, but I understood that the Nagoya arsenal produced Arisaka's in a later period for them to be part of the 'British contract'.? I do have some reference material somewhere regarding serials as well, but don't have it with me at the moment. HERE is another similar marked rifle which may be of interest. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 Here is the Nagoya Arsenal symbol just for others reference. I always thought the British Arisaka's needed to have the Koishikawa 'stacked-cannon-balls' to be of the period.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 Its kind of related to this. I bought a charger for the Arisaka marked Kynoch its a battlefield relic found in Latvia so the rounds certainly got about.Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 OK have now located my reference material which states the Nagoya Arisaka rifle production was between 1923-1945, so apparently not part of the 'British contract'.? SW, does your rifle serial number have a small Japanese character preceeding the digits, as this will be the series indicator which may help to date the particular rifle. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 18 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2014 S>S - Okay. Mine has the same mark preceding the number 45381 and the Nagoya mark so it was manufactured at about the same time as the one in your picture. So when was that made.?? It is certainly true that all the Type 30 bayonets with British markings I have had were marked withTokyo Arsenal markings. TonyE -any views on this. Have I got a post-War rifle and why is it marked with broad arrows? - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 Mine has the same mark preceding the number 45381 and the Nagoya mark so it was manufactured at about the same time as the one in your picture. So when was that made.?? That character signifies the Series 27 which was allocated to Nagoya Arsenal's Type 38 rifle production during the post 1933 period (reportedly about circa 1940) EDIT. Here's a reference ... "According to page 162 of Francis Allan's excellent book, 'The Type 38 Arisaka Rifle', the Nagoya Series 27 rifle was made from September 1939 to September 1940". Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 18 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2014 Well that is bad news for me as tho' the rifle is a superb example of a Type 38, it is not what I was looking for. So I will return it to the dealer who I think was no wiser than I. Thank you to all contributors. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 Yes SW, I am genuinely sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings ... As a collector I understand just how difficult it is to find some of these scarcer items with ownership markings. I would still be interested in seeing the Arrow markings and trying to unravel the mystery behind those. Some rumours circulating have that deformed Mum as being Thai usage.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 Can I make a couple of points. There is no such thing as a British "contract" Arisaka per se. The first 50,000 rifles, which appear to have all been Type 38, were originally intended for the French who offered them to the British in exchange for more British troops in France. These arrived in late 1914 and were issued to the Royal Navy as per Churchill's memorandum. The second tranche of about 80,000 weapons which arrived in early 1915 direct from Japan was a mixture of Type 38 rifles, Type 38 carbines, Type 30 rifles and a few Type 44 carbines and were drawn from whatever reserves the Japanese could spare. None of these were manufactured specially for the British and were whatever was available. In fact, the Type 38 rifles seem to all be Tokyo Arsenal and in the serial range from 600,000 to 1,600,000. The Type 30 rifles in British service that I have logged.range from about 100,000 to 500,000. Any rifle that was taken out of Japanese Imperial service had the chrysanthemum defaced as it was the Emperor's mark. Even rifles transferred from the military to the police had this done. It was not an indication of service with any particular country. Gaz - As Kynoch supplied nearly 250 million rounds of Arisaka ammunition for Russia many of these found their way to the Baltic states so I am not surprised a Kynoch charger was found there. At least six British companies made chargers for the ammunition but those by Kynoch are by far the most common. They can be brass, blued steel or nickelled steel. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 In fact, the Type 38 rifles seem to all be Tokyo Arsenal and in the serial range from 600,000 to 1,600,000. The Type 30 rifles in British service that I have logged.range from about 100,000 to 500,000. Any rifle that was taken out of Japanese Imperial service had the chrysanthemum defaced as it was the Emperor's mark. Even rifles transferred from the military to the police had this done. It was not an indication of service with any particular country. Well the Arisaka rifles that saw service with the British during the GW would all have to be Koishikawa (Tokyo Arsenal) produced as they were the only manufacturers of the rifles in Japan at that time.! (Which is the exact point of my preceeding discussion about the Nagoya-made rifle being a non-contender) Different forms of marking-out of the Chrysanthemum can be encountered with particular rifles from different periods. How was the 'Mum' so defaced on the rifles that entered British service during the GW.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 The 'Mum was overstamped with the Tokyo Arsenal symbol of piled canon balls. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 21 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Rifle has been returned to whence it came without any problem. The dealer was just as baffled as I. It isn't very often I get caught out so I learned something about Japanese rifles, thanks to TonyE and S>S. Pity is it wasn't a shooter otherwise I would have kept it as the condition was excellent- SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 21 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Yes SW, I am genuinely sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings ... As a collector I understand just how difficult it is to find some of these scarcer items with ownership markings. I would still be interested in seeing the Arrow markings and trying to unravel the mystery behind those. Some rumours circulating have that deformed Mum as being Thai usage.? Cheers, S>S The cancelled mum is identical to the left one in your post. There is a standard double arrow 'sold' mark on the butt. Here is the 'Inspection mark'. The one on the chamber is similar but with a '5'. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 That is an interesting marking, SW. Most of the ones I have seen that are marked on the tang have regimental marks as on the attached photos. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 Thanks for posting that photo of the marking SW. I have taken the liberty of enlarging the image somewhat to provide us with a closer look, very interesting but I am thinking not British. It certainly has an arrow, but not a very 'broad' arrow ... to be a Broad Arrow if you catch my drift.! And the letter E is very close in font, but not a perfect match for the Enfield used serif. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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