wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 16 February , 2014 Share Posted 16 February , 2014 Hello everyone, I don't normally collect German kit, but this one piece is the exception to that rule due to how cheap it was, I've done some work on it as it was semi relic bar the blade when I got it. could any one tell me anything about it? I assume the date is on the spine making it 1916? but as for maker and any special details I'd welcome some help. warm regards, Haydn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 16 February , 2014 Share Posted 16 February , 2014 Maker is Dürkopp Werke Actiengesellschaft, Bielefeld. Recent ebay one here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-GERMAN-M-1898-05-SAWBACK-MAUSER-BUTCHER-BAYONET-DURKOPP-PRUSSIAN/251447460975?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222006%26algo%3DSIC.FITP%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107083349%26meid%3D4881913223287400587%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D20140107083349%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D141182791254 Description mentions Prussian Crown Mark on spine but doesn't show pic. Here's another one that does! http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/251448260918?lpid=82&item=251448260918&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466 Apart from that, I know nothing! Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 February , 2014 Share Posted 16 February , 2014 They were generally considered an weapon that had a dual purpose ie a saw and issued to pioneers, a number of other German bayonets also had saw tooth edges. I don't think they were very practical as a saw unless on very light material. The history of saw tooth bayonets goes back at least to the 1870's, and many countries fielded them including Britain. There was some Great War fuss that was made about the barbarity of them and you will see examples where the saw tooth edges has been ground off. They are quite desirable as a collectors item and yours appears to be Prussian and dated 1916. That's about all I know 'off the cuff' there are some of the bayonet collectors that will have a lot more detail. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 February , 2014 Share Posted 16 February , 2014 Not much more to say really ... as already indicated made by Durkopp Werke AG and Prussian issue (Crown W cypher) in 1916. Attaches to the standard Gewehr 98 rifle. It's come up quite well by the looks of it, all things considered. A few drops of oil on those grip screws and a wipe off with a cotton bud will get rid of that rust dis-colouration. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 Sawback bayonets were normally issued to PIONEER units (combat engineers) as tool for creating field works or clearing fields of fire Also sawback bayonets were issued to one NCO in a squad for same type of work or for cutting up fire wood in the field As others have stated - were not that effective as saws Even today have combat knives with sawbacks - most promient is the pilots survival/rescue knife The sawteeth are for cutting way out of crashed aircraft or helicopters . Were popular during Vietnam when troopers would attaced them to front of combat webbing gear with handle facing down for quick access http://www.lifesupportintl.com/products/Knife_Pilot_Survival-931-696.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 17 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2014 Thank you all for the input! I knew it was 1916 dated but being Prussian is a new nugget of information, cheers for that! Yeah, a lot of countries adopted multi purpose bayonets towards the end of the 19th century? but generally dropped out of favour apart from in the Austro-Hungarian empire and later Germany to a smaller extent? I've seen a lot that had the teeth ground off to make them more 'front line issue friendly' due to the reports of troops captured with them being beaten heavily or killed 'unofficially', how far does this rumour corroborate with fact? was it the 'done thing' or exceptions? Also how common is it to find an example still with the teeth intact? And what would a fair valuation be for this item in pounds sterling? not that I'm planning on selling it of course. the grips are almost black, would this be age or oil getting into the wood? Is there any way to remove the discouloration? Thank you again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 The ebay prices for the ones I linked to would suggest several hundred pounds... Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 17 February , 2014 Share Posted 17 February , 2014 The grips are probably full of oil and dirt from age and use, if it was me I would probably leave it alone, but if I were to do anything it would be very light cleaning, it is desirable that the wear over all (wood/metal) is consistent. I have never read any reports of soldiers being in possession of a saw tooth being beaten and I have seen more saw tooth models than I have ever seen ground models, although they are out there. I am guessing that the modification was probably a result of official complaints through Switzerland than rumor. To be fair I really cannot say with any certainty that the modifications were done during the war or maybe after during the Weimar Government period. Maybe someone has that data. As I am not in the UK I would have no idea what the value there would be. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 I would not value as high as several hundred pounds. A good condition one in scabbard maybe but condition is every thing. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 This is what several hundred pounds value in sawbacks looks like ... well at least 2 hundred on most days I should think.! (from my collection so I'm probably biased) But seriously, it IS always about condition, and after that scarcity. So a scarcer version of a similar type bayonet is usually worth a considerable amount above average. In this case my example is a S98/05 aA S (alter arte 'high-eared' sawback) that was made in 1911 by Simson, and these are relatively scarcer than your wartime variety. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 And this is the same variety with the sawback ground off according to the wartime regulations. Known to the Germans as the Seitengewehr 98/05 aA sage abgeschliffen. The saws were officially removed in response to the British propaganda campaign, whereby most German troops were reluctant to take them into battle fearing 'retaliation'. Whether there was any truth to the rumours was irrelevant if the Tommies believed them, and the ordinary German soldiers were frightened to use their regular weaponry. So in order to keep these bayonets in service, the powers that be ordered that the saws be ground off as shown below, hence removing the "risk" and keeping them in use. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 Hello S>S, Nice photos, as I stated before I have seen more saw tooth blades than ground ones, if it was a general order wouldn't you think that the ground down ones would be more abundant than the ST blades? and that the saw tooth would be extremely rare? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 Khaki, the order only applied to those sawback bayonets that were still in frontline usage as of 1917, many were also sent to the rear to equip non-combatant units. New production of the sawbacks was cancelled at the same time. The situation is a bit like the P1907 hooked quillon, both cancelled but plenty of both still available. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 February , 2014 Share Posted 18 February , 2014 OK, S>S, that makes sense, thanks for the information. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 They are some nice 98/05s S>S - those aA sawbacks are actually very difficult to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 hello, German sawbacks mod.98/05 and even ground ones still relatively easy to find, but all depends from the condition they are in At the contrary Ersatz sawbacks and short mod.84/98 are difficult to find regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 All real nice bayonets on show here , nearly sure my sawback removed 98/05 is double marked with durkop being 1 of the makers but will have to check when get back tomorrow. Cnock, forgive my ignorance as german bayonets are relatively new ti my collection & still learning but could you post a pic of a short 84/98 as not sure how they differ from 84/98? Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 February , 2014 Share Posted 19 February , 2014 Nearly sure my sawback removed 98/05 is double marked with durkop being 1 of the makers but will have to check when get back tomorrow Yes it is Aleck, you sent me a photo of it remember.! A seldom seen overstamping with the Herder mark struck over the original Durkopp Werke symbol, very unusual. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 February , 2014 Share Posted 20 February , 2014 Carter's Volume 1, 34-36, summarises the 'Removal of the Saw-backs' issue. Briefly, the "fear of being caught with them was real enough" for one Bavarian unit to observe on 19 July 1915 that soldiers didn't want them as they believed that they risked being shot if caught with such bayonets. No action was taken then, but on 2 July 1917 the Bavarian War Ministry suggested they be taken out of service because of this concern, while noting that there was no evidence that any soldiers caprured with them had ever been mistreated. As it was, production of saw-backs had effectively ceased after 25 April 1917, and from 6 August 1917, the Bavarians only issued saw-backs to pioneers. On 17 August 1917, Ludendorff reported that there was widespread fear among soldiers about being captured with them, and on 15 September, the Prussian War ministry ordered that any in front line use should be replaced with non saw-backs., the Bavarians foillowing on 17 October 1917. However, saw-backs continued in use among training, garrison, and occupation units, and prison guards were issued with them. And finally, on 6 January 1918, the order was given to strat removing saw-backs. As for why they are relatively common today, given that saw-backs apparently formed only 6-10% of each of the various types of German bayonets that came into service, well, the explanation is curiosity value! Give the choice, what would you have taken back from the front line as a memento? An ordinary 98/05 or a saw-backed version, solid proof of the "utter barbarianism of the Hun"?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 20 February , 2014 Share Posted 20 February , 2014 Hello Aleck, didn't need to say short as they are all short! from left to right three 84/98 nA (grounded, sawback, normal blade) and one 84/98 aA regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 February , 2014 Share Posted 21 February , 2014 ... A seldom seen overstamping with the Herder mark struck over the original Durkopp Werke symbol, very unusual. 275.jpg Worth putting on record for others that this does seem to be a rather odd one in more ways than the usual! To summarise Carter volume 1, p.70 and 78: “RICHARD ABR. HERDER... Their trademark - the A stands for Abraham - always appears on the left hand sides of the blades in combination with the name of the finisher on the right. S[eitengewehren] 98/05 n.A have been recorded [ Carter notes exactly two!] made in 1916 and 1917 with the trademark of Dürkopp Werke A.G. on the right hand side. A single exception dated 1916 had Dürkopp's mark overstamping Herder's on the left.” Carter's list indicates that no Herder sawbacks have been recorded, but Durkopp did make them. And in this case it looks like the the Herder stamp is over the Dürkopp, and is on the left side, not the right, which is the opposite to what Carter notes from the single example he recorded. For the record, while Herder apparently usually (always?) stamped their mark on the left, Durkopp usually did the same. Carter concludes by observing that Durkopp made the blades, others often finished them - e.g., Herder and Koeller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 24 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2014 some more pictures after some more work sympathetically cleaning it, (it was a mess when bought). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 24 February , 2014 Share Posted 24 February , 2014 Nice work - its looking good. Did you use gun oil and wire wool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 February , 2014 Share Posted 25 February , 2014 Wulfrik, in case you don't know, those crowned Gothic letters are 'Fraktur' marks, made by the inspector who approved the manufacture. In other words they are are the Imperial German equivalent of the WaffenAmt marks of the 3rd Reich. They are usually found where you have them, beneath the year stamp on the spine and above the latch on the pommel, but sometimes turn up on the inner face of the crossguard. As far as I know nobody has yet tried to catalogue these... Best, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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