Military Medal

[CROONAERT]

I was always of the belief that (1916-18 anyway), the MM wasn't awarded posthumously. However, could a soldier actually be killed later on the day that he was reccomended for it, and it still be awarded?

I'm asking this because I have the medal to a guy who was KIA on 14th July 1916 and who was gazetted in October 1916. Looking at the diaries and Regimental history for his battalion, I can't see any other time that he could have earned it apart from on 14th July itself. (He was out of the line between end of March 1916 and 13th July). Could he possibly have earned it on the 13th when his Bn wasn't really doing anything apart from moving towards the front?

Thanks,

Dave.

[Mark Abbott]

The MM can be awarded after death.

I have in my collection the MM awarded to 53451 L/Cpl P Thomas 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers. The award is recorded in the LFs history as being for a trench raid on Canteleux Alley on the 14th September 1918.

Thomas was killed on the 25 October 1918 and is buried in Plot 17, Row F, Grave 31 at Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez. His MM was not gazetted until the 17 June 1918.

Was the delay between the action and the gazette date a result of him being killed? Unfortunately,I do not have the answer; perhaps someone else on the list might.

If anyone has his pai and plaque,please let me know!

Best wishes,

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

Just noted the typo in the previous post.

The gazette date is 17 June 1919, not 1918!

Sorry

[John_Hartley]

Dave

Could he have been on some sort of detached duty on the 13th (or earlier while the Bn was out of the line)? Or, perhaps, something did occur when the Bn was moving forward. Or, can you get the MM for general good service so we arent lookingat a specific date?

Or arent there some daft war diaries where the day doesnt start at midnight (I'm sure I remember a thread about this donkey's ages ago)? Or, how about his bravery is early on the 14th; recommendation goes in and he gets killed later same day.

Or it's just a SNAFU or FUBB (the latter being most likely if there was chaos later in the day).

John

[Terry Denham]

Only the VC and MiD could be awarded posthumously (ie for an action leading to the death of the recipient and recommended after their death).

Other awards recommended prior to the death of the recipient could be made as Dave describes after their death. However, these are not 'posthumous' - a word which refers to the recommendation date being after their death due to the relevant action rather than the date of gazetting or presentation to relatives.

Several threads have discussed this

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...osthumous+award

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...osthumous+award

[CROONAERT]

Thanks for all the answers. It does seem possible (even likely ?), therefore,(after reading the histories of his unit) that my man did the deed that earned him the MM on the morning of 14th July, was recommended for the MM (paperwork sent off?) and killed later on the same day.

There is the slight possibility that he was working with another unit when he earned it, though I've not found anything to back this up in my research. Even slimmer is the chance that he earned it on a date way before the July 1916 (March?) and it just took eons for his gazette entry.

Makes me wonder if he ever knew that he'd been reccomended for it?

Dave.

[John_Hartley]

Dave

Don't discount the possibility of him being with another unit.

I have, today, just sort of resolved a query about several 6th Cheshires who appear to have been with a Kings Own Lancaster unit when they were killed over several days in August 1916. They are listed by CWGC as being Cheshires, on the MIC as Cheshires but I couldnt find any reference to them being sent off to the Lankies. However, Peter at the Museum has found a reference to a batch of Chehsires being in a "draft" to the 1/5th Kings Own. Gawd alone knows where they've come from - but theres 87 of 'em.

Might be a case of need must - in the chaos of July.

John

[Dave_59]

So are you saying that had he been killed in the act of bravery that constituted the awary of the MM, he may have been considered for the VC?

Dave

[Max]

So are you saying that had he been killed in the act of bravery that constituted the awary of the MM, he may have been considered for the VC?

Not necessarily. What it does mean is that he couldn't have been considered for the MM.

Andy

[NIGEL]

so what was the act that you would get a MM for, and would you have to do kind of more of that act to be awarded a VC???????

[SPotter]

It does seem possible (even likely ?), therefore,(after reading the histories of his unit) that my man did the deed that earned him the MM on the morning of 14th July, was recommended for the MM (paperwork sent off?) and killed later on the same day.

Dave,

Not wanting to discount your theory, but it seems very unlikely to me that in the midst of battle even the famed bureaucracy of the Army could get a recommendation in for an award that quickly. It is an interesting question though. Just how long was the 'average' period between an act of gallantry being performed, this being brought to the attention of the Commanding Officer who would then have to submit names off to Brigade or whoever for consideration. Or was it the other way round? Did the Division / Brigade or whichever 'higher authority' periodically request lists of names of those deserving recognition. I would consider that this is how it would have happened for the MID at least, otherwise the senior officers would spent all their time preparing applications rather than directing their battalion?

Any thoughts?

Steve

[CROONAERT]

but it seems very unlikely to me that in the midst of battle even the famed bureaucracy of the Army could get a recommendation in for an award that quickly.

You'd probably be surprised! I've come across accounts where an action is being recorded by an officer as it is actually occurring, with notes or recomendations being sent rearwards along with the runners almost before the action has actually finished! - and this is in the heat of battle.

Dave.

[Jon Miller]

I too would like clarification -

Is it the fact that if a soldier died during an act of bravery which would have been rewarded with an MM had he survived, and for one reason or another didn't qualify him for a VC, then he wouldn't have ended up with a medal at all?......the best he could achieve then being MiD?

[SPotter]

Dave,

Thanks for the clarification - I am indeed surprised. Nice to see that some Regiments at least thought so much of their men.

As we are talking about the MM could perhaps the date of it's introduction i.e. summer 1916 be the missing factor here? Let us assume that a soldier performs and survives some particular act of gallantry before the introduction of the MM. It is at a level not warranting the award of a DCM but more deserving than a MID. This must surely have been a common dilemma for the first two years of the war.

The MM is introduced and suddenly there is a way of rewarding the gallantry. As the man survived the act, by regulation he is eligible, although he may have subsequently died. Was there anything in the award criteria which specifically stated that the medal was not to be awarded retrospectively? I cannot quote examples, but I feel fairly certain that I have read of the MM being awarded for acts of gallantry pre-dating it's introduction.

A possibility perhaps?

Steve

[John F]

Dave,

Thanks for the clarification - I am indeed surprised. Nice to see that some Regiments at least thought so much of their men.

As we are talking about the MM could perhaps the date of it's introduction i.e. summer 1916 be the missing factor here? Let us assume that a soldier performs and survives some particular act of gallantry before the introduction of the MM. It is at a level not warranting the award of a DCM but more deserving than a MID. This must surely have been a common dilemma for the first two years of the war.

The MM is introduced and suddenly there is a way of rewarding the gallantry. As the man survived the act, by regulation he is eligible, although he may have subsequently died. Was there anything in the award criteria which specifically stated that the medal was not to be awarded retrospectively? I cannot quote examples, but I feel fairly certain that I have read of the MM being awarded for acts of gallantry pre-dating it's introduction.

A possibility perhaps?

Steve

I have an MM which was awarded some 18 months after his death. He was KIA 08/05/1915 & was awarded his MM 11/11/1916. As you can see this 18 months after his death. The Lancashire Fusiliers where also awarded 6VC's, 3 DCM's & only one MM for this action. I do not know if this is the longest anyone has been awarded the MM after their death but it must be one of them.

[CROONAERT]

Dave,

Thanks for the clarification - I am indeed surprised. Nice to see that some Regiments at least thought so much of their men.

As we are talking about the MM could perhaps the date of it's introduction i.e. summer 1916 be the missing factor here? Let us assume that a soldier performs and survives some particular act of gallantry before the introduction of the MM. It is at a level not warranting the award of a DCM but more deserving than a MID. This must surely have been a common dilemma for the first two years of the war.

The MM is introduced and suddenly there is a way of rewarding the gallantry. As the man survived the act, by regulation he is eligible, although he may have subsequently died. Was there anything in the award criteria which specifically stated that the medal was not to be awarded retrospectively? I cannot quote examples, but I feel fairly certain that I have read of the MM being awarded for acts of gallantry pre-dating it's introduction.

A possibility perhaps?

Steve

I have an MM which was awarded some 18 months after his death. He was KIA 08/05/1915 & was awarded his MM 11/11/1916. As you can see this 18 months after his death. The Lancashire Fusiliers where also awarded 6VC's, 3 DCM's & only one MM for this action. I do not know if this is the longest anyone has been awarded the MM after their death but it must be one of them.

Quite a number of MM's were "backdated" beyond it's inseption, even back to 1914. This is another avenue I suppose I'll have to explore with regards to my MM before I can be certain.

Thanks for reminding me about this aspect.

Dave.

[mcderms]

Simple answer... Paperwork! It could take months for something in an officers report to be noted by a senior officer, a recommendation made, a medal awarded, that award being gazetted etc. etc.

Everyone seems to be confusing the meaning of 'posthumous' here... If Pvt Smith single handidly destroys an MG nest and IS KILLED DOING SO he can only receive the VC or a MID. If Pvt Smith survives the gallant act, he might get any one of a number of awards from a fag and a pat on the back up to and including the VC. Let's assume that the CO thinks his boy of due an MM and makes the recommendation, this will then start crawling through channels and will be awarded and gazetted sometime in the future. If Pvt Smith is subsequently KIA, this will not stop the award as you cannot retrospectively re-judge gallantry i.e. you're only due the award if you manage to stay alive.

What you couldn't do was recommend a soldier for anything other than a MID or VC for an act in which the soldier was KIA.