No.9 Squadron RAF - August 1918

[Medal Man]

Hello, I am new to the GWF and require some assistance from other members if possible.

I am an active social and military historian, recently I purchased a BWM and VM pair to add to my collection awarded to 2/Lt. Edgar Brandon RAF.

Edgar's life was extraordinary, I have pieced together almost his entire life story but the final tragic part in which he lost his life has left me a little bit stumped. He was listed as KIA on August 11th. 1918, he was an observer with No.9 Sqdn. RAF, I am almost certain he would have been flying in an R.E.8 and again almost certain, but not quite sure that from the 17th. July, No.9 Sqdn., was based at Quevauvillers before moving to Amiens on the 15th. August.

Edgar had been at the front for just three weeks before his death, what I need to establish is what happened on that fateful day, I can only assume that he was shot down, I don't know who his pilot was and I have no details of the combat action.

This young man is buried at the Villers-Bretonneux Military Cemetery with a lot of the Australians, I believe he is the only member of No.9 Sqdn., in that cemetery, obviously not with his pilot.

Can anyone help me to complete the research file on this brave young airman?

[mickdavis]

B4105 Issued for EF w/e 8.4.1918. 1 ASD Reception Park dd ex England 15.4.1918. 2 ASD dd ex 1 ASD 20.4.1918. 12 Sqn dd ex 2 ASD 23.4.1918 and damaged landing at 25 Sqn aerodrome 20.5.1918 (Lt F.V. Bird/2Lt G. Terry both OK – the machine struck a hole covered by long grass and turned up on its nose). 2 ASD ex 12 Sqn. 9 Sqn dd ex 1 ASD 6.8.1918 (Lt F. Abrahams/2Lt F. Ibbotson, engine 762/WD4629), damaged on 12.45 Offensive Patrol 11.8.1918 (Capt R. Hilton OK/2Lt E. Brandon KIA – the machine came under heavy fire from the trenches), in combat on Neutralising Fire/Counter Attack Patrol 27.10.1918 (Capt J.E. Croden/2Lt J. Houldgreaves both OK – drove off an EA two-seater) and wrecked on 10.50 Camera Gun Practice 19.11.1918 (2Lt E.W. Steel/2Lt P.V. Kilby both OK – the pilot overshot on landing and the machine ran into a sunken road, propeller and undercarriage damaged). 7 Salvage Section ex 9 Sqn 23.11.1918 (engine 635/WD3751).

C2942 9 Sqn dd ex 2 ASD 27.10.1918 (Lt G.W. Miller/Lt S. Chandler, in combat 28.10.1918 (Lt G.W. Miller/Lt H.C.G. Newton both OK – the crew fired at two groups of Fokkers but both guns jammed), damaged on 14.05 Low Recce 10.11.1918 (Lt G.W. Miller/Lt H.C.G. Newton both OK – the machine was hit by tracers from ground machine gun which ignited a drum of Lewis ammunition, the flames were put out with a pyrene extinguisher) and damaged on 14.15 Contact Patrol 24.2.1919 (2Lt S.A. Dismore OK/Lt H.C.G. Newton injured – the machine crashed on take-off from 5 Sqn aerodrome). 1 ASD Reception Park Marquise, ex 9 Sqn 5.5.1919 (Lt Brandon, engine 30778/WD20767, Vickers C4538).

F6085 9 Sqn dd to advanced aerodrome ex 2 ASD 9.8.1918 (Lt D.S. Ogilvie/2Lt E. Brandon, engine 27470/WD12299) and wrecked landing from 09.50 Bombing 19.9.1918 (2Lt F. Abrahams/2Lt R.H. Goodwin both OK – the pilot misjudged the landing and the machine dropped over onto one wing and crashed). 2 ASD ex 9 Sqn and deleted 22.11.1918 (not worth reconstruction).

[Medal Man]

Reply to mickdavis

Many thanks for your interesting information, could you please clarify what in your opinion happened to 2/Lt. E. Brandon - 'ex 2 ASD 9.8.18 with pilot D.S. Ogilvie - and wrecked landing from 09.50 bombing'.

Would it be safe for me to assume that Edgar Brandon was involved in a serious crash two days before his death was reported as KIA, therefore he could have died as a result of injuries sustained, the pilot surviving, that could explain why he is the only member of No.9 squadron in Villers-Bretonneux cemetery?

[Medal Man]

Having looked again at the post from mickdavis it is obvious what happened to Edgar Brandon on 11.8.18 - thanks Mick, you have finished off the story of Edgar's remarkable life, I am truly grateful for your assistance.

[KevinBattle]

I think you need Mick to clarify definitively but it looks to me as if the aircraft that Lt Brandon was fatally wounded in was

B4105 Issued for EF(Expeditionary Force) w/e (week ending) 8.4.1918. (To)1 ASD (No 1 Aircraft Supply Depot) Reception Park dd ex (delivered from) England (on)15.4.1918.

(To) 2 ASD dd ex 1 ASD 20.4.1918.

(To) 12 Sqn (dd ex 2 ASD) 23.4.1918 and damaged landing at 25 Sqn aerodrome (on) 20.5.1918 (Lt F.V. Bird/2Lt G. Terry both OK – the machine struck a hole covered by long grass and turned up on its nose). -obviously pilot not familiar with No 25 Squadrons landing field!

(Returned to) 2 ASD ex 12 Sqn. (for repairs, then issued to) 9 Sqn dd ex 1 ASD (on) 6.8.1918 (Lt F. Abrahams/2Lt F. Ibbotson, engine 762/WD4629),

(then) damaged on 12.45 (time) Offensive Patrol (on) 11.8.1918 (Capt R. Hilton OK/2Lt E. Brandon KIA – the machine came under heavy fire from the trenches),

(Subsequently) in combat on Neutralising Fire/Counter Attack Patrol (on) 27.10.1918 (Capt J.E. Croden/2Lt J. Houldgreaves both OK – drove off an EA two-seater) and

wrecked on 10.50 Camera Gun Practice (on) 19.11.1918 (2Lt E.W. Steel/2Lt P.V. Kilby both OK – the pilot overshot on landing and the machine ran into a sunken road, propeller and undercarriage damaged). 7 Salvage Section ex 9 Sqn 23.11.1918 (engine 635/WD3751).

I think the subsequent mention of Lt Brandon may refer to delivering F6085 when Ogilvie and he collected it from No 2 ASD on 9 August.

F6085 was subsequently wrecked on 19 September when crewed by Abrahams and Goodman.

Mick will no doubt tell you that I've made a hash of it and give you the correct version!

EDIT: Ah! I see you've worked most of it out!

[Medal Man]

Thanks Kevin

This has to be an R.E.8 aircraft...? 9 Sqdn.,had these and a few Bristol fighters, but they weren't delivered until July '18. Offensive patrol - could this have been a low level bombing strike? Hilton must have been at a low altitude for Brandon to be fatally hit at speed?... quite an unusual way to meet his end.

Trying to piece this together!

Incidentally, young Edgar was a character, he had left Bedford School and sailed off to Tasmania before moving to Ceylon to work with his brother at a tea plantation company - I think owned by his family. He wanted to do his bit for King and country and eventually made it back to England where he then attended the Inns of Court OTC - he arrived at No.9 Sqdn., just three weeks before his death on July 21st. 1918.

[fetubi]

Here'a a bit more information about what happened that day:

B4105 RE8 9Sqn

**LowP heavy ground mg fire, shot up over map reference Sh62c 521.b (Capt R Hilton OK/2Lt E Brandon KIA) left 12-45pm returned 3-45pm, they were patrolling from 300' to 1500' This comes out of the relevant expanded 'The Sky Their Battlefield' entry.

Hope it adds some more.

Regards,

Trevor

[Medal Man]

Thanks Trevor,

Not a very safe thing to do... patrolling in an R.E. 8... at 500' to 1500' - any clues as to where the map reference is?... I suspect somewhere around Amiens?

[fetubi]

You've got me thinking! I suspect the "5" is actually an "S" - and that would put it a couple of km west of Ablaincourt.

The best site on the entire Web for these maps is here - this link takes you to the map in question, but dozens of others are available

http://lt1.mcmaster.ca/ww1/wrz4mp.php?grid=62c&map_id=57&view

The part of the map in question is in the far bottom left.

Cheers,

Trevor

[MikeMeech]

Thanks Trevor,

Not a very safe thing to do... patrolling in an R.E. 8... at 500' to 1500' - any clues as to where the map reference is?... I suspect somewhere around Amiens?

Hi

A height of 500' to 1500' was quite common for Corps aeroplanes on Counter Attack Patrol or Contact Patrol missions (from 1916 onwards), they needed to be at around this height to do their job supporting the infantry. They could be fitted with seat armour.

A couple of Bristol Fighters started to be attached to Corps squadrons from the beginning of 1918 onwards, these were to carry out spotting for long-range artillery using two-way wireless telegraphy. Rather late in the war some Arab engined Bristols were being introduced, these were to replace the RE.8/FK.8 in theory but engine problems delayed them.

Mike

[Medal Man]

Trevor/Mike - Thanks guys.

Looking at the map it would be safe to assume they flew a reasonably straight easterly course from the airfield at Quevauvillers to the west of Amiens towards Ablaincourt.

I have here Edgar Brandon's medals, now I can complete his research file, thanks again.

Sounds like pretty accurate ground to air machine gun fire on the Germans' part here, is this correct, or did they get lucky?

[MikeMeech]

Trevor/Mike - Thanks guys.

Looking at the map it would be safe to assume they flew a reasonably straight easterly course from the airfield at Quevauvillers to the west of Amiens towards Ablaincourt.

I have here Edgar Brandon's medals, now I can complete his research file, thanks again.

Sounds like pretty accurate ground to air machine gun fire on the Germans' part here, is this correct, or did they get lucky?

Hi

More 'luck' really, you would more likely to be shot up rather than shot down by SAA fire from mgs or rifles. Remember WW1 aircraft were not like modern ones that have lots of equipment and fuel tanks throughout the machine, WW1 a/c had very little in the wings and fuselage to be damaged and many rounds would just go through fabric. The British document SS 205 'Notes on Observation from Aeroplanes' page 7 gives some details of this (this was to encourage ground troops to keep firing at a/c even if they did not come down immediately), to shorten the piece, they used for example of RE.8 flying at 500 ft over a mg at 5% to the flank - total surface area of a/c presented 106 1/2 sq ft. Total surface area struck to make a/c US for, 12 to 24 hrs - 106 1/2 sq ft, for 24 to 56 hours - 20 3/4 sq ft. to bring machine down at once - 2 1/2 sq ft (exclusive of pilot and observer).

Mike

[Medal Man]

Interesting stats, looks like Edgar was very unlucky and therefore an 'unusual' casualty, I wonder exactly what they would have being trying to achieve flying at 500ft in the midst of what was described as heavy mg fire?

[MikeMeech]

Interesting stats, looks like Edgar was very unlucky and therefore an 'unusual' casualty, I wonder exactly what they would have being trying to achieve flying at 500ft in the midst of what was described as heavy mg fire?

Hi

Depends what their 'mission' was and the battlefield visibility at the time. If the visibility was bad then they would fly at a height that they could achieve their mission. In Contact Patrols if infantry 'failed' to light their flares or show their other means of showing their location then the aeroplane would have to fly low to identify uniforms (colour of uniforms could be ascertained from 600-700 ft or lower). The lower the height meant the aeroplane would be in the range of more weapons, however, it is still not an 'easy' task to bring an aeroplane down. Ground commanders were warned only to request very low flying missions if the information to be gained was very important as it would increase the chances of loss of aeroplane and crew, this would mean these 'experienced' men would not be available for future tasks that commander may require! However, we do see the aircrew undertaking low flying when THEY considered it necessary to complete their mission.

Mike

[Medal Man]

Thanks Mike,

Something for me there to ponder upon

[mullet]

Hi

Just in case you have yet to get a photograph of Edgar's grave, by coincidence I took this at the start of March 2014 (unaware of this thread). Sadly not the best quality photo, and the headstone is very weathered, but I hope it adds to your research.

Best regards

Andy

Edited to add (oh, I see that you have ebayed the medals already)

[Loader]

I hope he was shooting back when he was hit. Hard to imagine that low & not returning the enemy fire as they flew over. maybe he did some damage too.

[nils d]

I don't have details but one of his pilots ,Hilton , wrote a biography which might give you some "colour"

[hmsk212]

Hi

Looking through the squadron information at Kew yesterday it shows that Brandon was with Captain Hilton in RE8 4510 and not in RE8 4105 ( both machines flew that day ) 4105 was generally flown by Lt Green with Lt Eastwood as his observer

Steve

[mickdavis]

It's a long time since I looked at the records but do have this in the anomalies section of my RE8 file and noted it as a possible typo in the original file. The problem here is that there was only one RE8 with the number 4510 in its serial and that was A4510 which, like a lot of RE8s in its batch, was issued for training - it crashed in service with 36 TDS Yatesbury on 23 August 1918, killing 2Lt FR Hayward.

[mickdavis]

Just to follow up: 9 Sqn seems to have had a particularlay inept typist - there are more unidentifiable RE8s in its records than in others. Some examples -

A4049 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 5.8.1917 (engine 1169/WD4538).

A3963 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 5.8.1917 (engine 766/WD4633)

A4229 2 AD ex 9 Sqn 18.7.1918 (engine 756/WD4625)

A4255 9 Sqn deleted on unit 9.8.1918 (engine 29543/WD12376)

F5097 9 Sqn dd ex 2 ASD 11.8.1918 (engine 30870/20871). (F5907)

4510 9 Sqn damaged on 12.45 Offensive Patrol/Low Bombing 11.8.1918 (Capt R. Hilton OK/2Lt E. Brandon KIA – the machine was hit by ground fire and force landed at Bayonvillers). (B4105)

5998 9 Sqn damaged on 09.00 Special Duty with 35 Sqn 20.7.1918 (2Lt W.O. Goldthorpe/Lt Dick both OK – the machine crashed on landing). (F5998 was F2B)

4822 9 Sqn dd ex 2 AIS 18.7.1918 (Lt G. Milner/Lt Reynolds).

3073 9 Sqn damaged on 09.35 Artillery Observation 25.12.1917 (2Lt G.O. Newton/Lt Reynolds both OK – the machine landed in a hailstorm and broke a centre-section strut).

377- 9 Sqn in combat on 09.30 Artillery Patrol 20.9.1917 (Lt F. Malden OK, Lt G. Turner WIA – the machine was attacked and damaged by 2 EA).

3772 9 Sqn and damaged on 13.05 Artillery Observation 26.8.1918 (2Lt E.P. Lewis/Lt C.H. Dixon both OK – the engine failed and the pilot attempted to force land on 21 Sqn aerodrome but could not get into wind, undercarriage and lower port mainplane broken).

3721 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 20.7.1917 (Lt P. Warburton/Lt V.M. de Belabre).

4810 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 25.5.1917 (Lt H.M. Yeatman)

4288 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 25.5.1917 (Capt E.H. Bedson)

3107 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD (Lt Stedman – ran into ditch after landing, damaging propeller and lower port mainplane.

4134 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 14.6.1917 (Lt H. Turner).

6494 9 Sqn dd ex ASD 21.11.1918 (Capt M. Forsyth).

[nieuport11]

I'm sure you've already worked all these out already Mick but the answer to the above quiz is:

A4649

A3763

A4429

A4375

F5907

B4105

probably B5098

D4882

B5073

A3770

A3722 (Lewis was killed 6.10.17 so I presume you are referring to the incident on 4.9.17)

A3621

A4610

A4288

A3701

A4314

presume B6494 -they refurbished and forget to paint the new number (F6248) on

[hmsk212]

Hi,

2nd Lt A E Brandon was attached to 9 Squadron on 30th July 1918 as an on probation observer to C Flight with the Wireless Call No 38. Whilst I was at Kew I was only looking for flights involving Brandon as an observer so I didn't go too deep into other plane numbers but in the few pages of the 9 Squadron Records Book that I photographed the following variations of 4510 occur.:-

09/08/1918 4105 Green & Eastwood 2-50 - 4-5

10/08/1918 4015 Hilton & Brandon 9-30 - 9-45

10/08/1918 4510 Hilton & Brandon 10-45 - 11-50

10/08/1918 4105 Green & Eastwood 3-25 - 4-25

11/08/1918 4510 Hilton & Brandon 8-30 - 9-45

11/08/1918 4105 Green & Eastwood 10-25 - 10-40

11/08/1918 4510 Hilton & Brandon 12-45 - 3-45 ( inc one & half hours on ground --Fatal Flight for Brandon )

Steve

[hmsk212]

The only other flights and machines with which Brandon was involved were :-

07/08/1918 RE8 4877 Hilton & Brandon 8-50 - 8-55 ( Engine cut out at 600ft. Landed at MOYENCOURT Aerodrome, Machine OK )

09/08/1918 RE8 6085 Ogilvie & Brandon 10-35 - 11-15 ( New Machine from No1 ASD Landing at Advanced Aerodrome )

09/08/1918 Bristol 1347 Hilton & Brandon 12-35 - 2-0

10/08/1918 RE8 6085 Abrahams & Brandon 6 - 7-20

10/08/1918 Bristol 1347 Hilton & Brandon 3-25 - 4-25

Steve

[Guest geoffthebiker]

Just to follow up: 9 Sqn seems to have had a particularlay inept typist - there are more unidentifiable RE8s in its records than in others. Some examples -

A4049 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 5.8.1917 (engine 1169/WD4538).

A3963 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 5.8.1917 (engine 766/WD4633)

A4229 2 AD ex 9 Sqn 18.7.1918 (engine 756/WD4625)

A4255 9 Sqn deleted on unit 9.8.1918 (engine 29543/WD12376)

F5097 9 Sqn dd ex 2 ASD 11.8.1918 (engine 30870/20871). (F5907)

4510 9 Sqn damaged on 12.45 Offensive Patrol/Low Bombing 11.8.1918 (Capt R. Hilton OK/2Lt E. Brandon KIA – the machine was hit by ground fire and force landed at Bayonvillers). (B4105)

5998 9 Sqn damaged on 09.00 Special Duty with 35 Sqn 20.7.1918 (2Lt W.O. Goldthorpe/Lt Dick both OK – the machine crashed on landing). (F5998 was F2B)

4822 9 Sqn dd ex 2 AIS 18.7.1918 (Lt G. Milner/Lt Reynolds).

3073 9 Sqn damaged on 09.35 Artillery Observation 25.12.1917 (2Lt G.O. Newton/Lt Reynolds both OK – the machine landed in a hailstorm and broke a centre-section strut).

377- 9 Sqn in combat on 09.30 Artillery Patrol 20.9.1917 (Lt F. Malden OK, Lt G. Turner WIA – the machine was attacked and damaged by 2 EA).

3772 9 Sqn and damaged on 13.05 Artillery Observation 26.8.1918 (2Lt E.P. Lewis/Lt C.H. Dixon both OK – the engine failed and the pilot attempted to force land on 21 Sqn aerodrome but could not get into wind, undercarriage and lower port mainplane broken).

3721 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 20.7.1917 (Lt P. Warburton/Lt V.M. de Belabre).

4810 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 25.5.1917 (Lt H.M. Yeatman)

4288 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 25.5.1917 (Capt E.H. Bedson)

3107 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD (Lt Stedman – ran into ditch after landing, damaging propeller and lower port mainplane.

4134 9 Sqn dd ex 1 AD 14.6.1917 (Lt H. Turner).

6494 9 Sqn dd ex ASD 21.11.1918 (Capt M. Forsyth).

hello mick davis Lt george Milner,regimental no 841622 was my grandfather flying RE8 in 9 sqn.He joined the 148th Reserve bn C.E.F in Montreal,CanadaHe joined the Canadian regiment on 26th February 1916 as a private and spent time in valcartier training camp,Bramshott and Witley.He was seconded to the RFC on 16th June 1916.He was received from RFC Section 3rd Echelon after doing two tours as an obsever in 12th sqn and 4th sqn.He later became a flight commander in 9 qn and held the rank of Captain.My father who was a Lancaster pilot in WW2 remembers his father telling him he trained for ten hours to become a pilot at Brooklands airfield.I have some photos of George Milner sitting next to his c/o Major Rodwell in front of the 9 sqn RE8s.i guess echelon refers to the airwing of the army.Can you confirm this.Also on his Attestation paper question 10 have you ever served in any military force?4 mos Aux Batt and 4 mos COTC.He joined at the mcgill university,Montreal,so i guess he was in the Canadian Officer Training Corp but no one knows what the Aux Battalion was about.If you would like to see any photos,I will gladly post them.He later rejoined his canadian regiment on 12th Jan 1919 and sailed home to canada.In WW2 He was an RAF Intelligence officer stationed in various RAF Postings in the UK and his unit interrogated Rudolf Hess and my father has a bit of his Me110.George milner went on to become a wing commander in freetown west africa then in the 2 TAF.After WW2 he joined the Control Commission Germany and was based in various cities for eight years.He died in march 1961 five months before i was born.regards geoff milner