Officer 8Bn London Post Office Rifles grave found in Aust

[Derit]

I hope this is in the correct area, mods please excuse a newbie and move it to wherever it should be.

I am a research journalist working on the Australian commemmoration of ANZAC in 2015. As part of this effort we are physically visiting every possible burial or cremation site outside the capitol cities in an attempt to find forgotton WW1 Diggers.

This is proceeding and a monograph of each is being written for provision to the various local authorities to be used in their local ceremones.

The point of this post is that I have recently come across a somewhat isolated grave with a simple decaying headstone reading;

Lieutenant James Gill

Died 11-6-1943

8Bn

The London Post Office Rifles

I understand that The LPOR amalgamated units after WW1 to the 8Bn

No further information is available in local (North West Queensland) records apart from a folio note regarding the burial. It was wartime and records were seldom fully kept.

I post this in case any family or other researchers are interested and also to save the Officers memory being lost.

Photos of the site are available and I can provide them if requested.

My colleagues and I will (after the wet season passes) tidy up the grave site and add an additional marker. If anybody here has any additional information they could add to the Officers details I would be most grateful.

I salute Lt. James Gill for his service.

[apwright]

Interesting chap!
Assuming I've found the correct medal index card, it indicates he initially served with the Canadian Pioneer Bn before being commissioned into 8th Londons. He claimed his medals from addresses in New Zealand (Kaitaia and Te Kao, North Auckland).
Details from his Canadian Army attestation:
Born 21/11/1871 at Skipton, Yorkshire. Occupation Broker. Married with 3 children. Resident at Eburne Station BC. Prior service 3 yrs with 4th US Cavalry. Attested in Canadian Forces 30 March 1915, age 43 & 4 months, service no. 154501.

Then commissioned 8th Londons 12/5/16, and landed in France 13/2/1918.

Adrian

[Derit]

Thanks very much for the information. We will add it to the small plaque to be placed on his grave.

I am pleased that this Officer, who at best could be called a Professional Soldier or at least an "enthusiastic amateur warrior" lived to 71 years. His deployment to France two years after his Attestation may point to his then age and the dreadfull need for reos? At least he survived.

He is buried at Julia Creek (pop: nominally 1600 but in his time approx 58 persons plus outlying of 120). What he was doing there is unknown but it may be possible that he was employing his undoubted skills as a horseman (US Cavalry) in the district, which is and was pastoral.

Its sad that we can do no more but this teams remit is basically to concentrate on First AIF Soldiers, RAN and AFC.

Once again thank you and I trust that if we stumble on more British ex Servicemens graves, that are unknown to the AWM / Aust. National Records Office, I may be able to impose on you for assistance? My team and I feel that these men deserve a little better than being "lost to time".

Regards

derit

(Dennis Ritchie)

[frev]

Lieutenant James Gill

Died 11-6-1943

Hmmm, strange – the Qld BDM records show that James GILL died 11 June 1942 [not 1943?] – the son of Thomas GILL & Martha THOMSON

From the newspapers:

Townsville Daily Bulletin (Qld), Tue 16 Jun 1942 (p.3):

JULIA CREEK NOTES [June 11]

Mr Gill, bookkeeper, at Dalgonally Station, was brought in recently by the Julia Creek ambulance to the local hospital, where he is progressing favourably.

Townsville Daily Bulletin (Qld), Thur 25 Jun 1942 (p.1):

JULIA CREEK NOTES [June 22]

Mr Gill, bookkeeper of Dalgonally Station, passed away at the local hospital on June 12. To his many friends and relatives we express our heartfelt sympathy.

UK Census Records:

Parents Thomas (a Shoemaker) & Martha GILL

1871 Census, Langcliffe, Yorkshire – son James, age 3, born (c1868) Langcliffe, Yorkshire

1881 Census, Moston, Lancashire – son James, age 13, born (c1868) Langcliffe, Yorkshire – occupation: Solicitor’s Clerk

And according to a FRYER Family Tree – he was born 21/11/1868 (not 1871) –– married to Agnes – emigrated from Vancouver, Canada to NZ in 1920

3 daughters:

Helen M born 1897 Nth Yorkshire

Elsie Frances born 1899 British Columbia – married Cyril FRYER in Auckland, NZ in 1925

Marion B born 1901 British Columbia

The family had obviously emigrated from the UK to Canada somewhere between 1897 & 1899

Elsie’s marriage notice (1925 NZ paper) refers to parents Mr & Mrs James Gill

Helen’s marriage notice (1931 NZ paper) refers to parents Mr & the late Mrs Jas Gill

There is a death registered in NZ for an Agnes GILL in 1928, age 59 (b.c1869)

James seems to have moved to NSW, Australia soon after Agnes’ death

1930 Electoral Roll: James Gill, Edgeroi Station, Edgeroi, NSW – accountant

1932, from a newspaper article: Edgeroi Station, NSW – James Gill, bookkeeper

Then returned to NZ in 1934:

The North Western Courier (Narrabri, NSW), Mon 17 Sept 1934 (p.1):

PERSONAL

Mr James Gill, who has been employed at Edgeroi Station for a number of years, left Narrabri this afternoon, bound for New Zealand, where he is to take up residence with his daughters.

Before once again returning to Australia – this time to Qld (where he eventually died):

1937 Electoral Roll: James Gill, Claverton Station, Claverton Siding, Qld - bookkeeper

Also note:

a James GILL married Agnes Augusta SMITH Mar Qtr 1893 Wortley, Yorkshire

however an Agnes Augusta GILL died 1906 Barnsley, Yorkshire, age 39 (b.c1867) ??

Cheers, Frev

PS – best of luck in your quest for lost WW1 Diggers….

[KevinBattle]

Masterly detective work there, frev!

Presumably at least one of his daughters oversaw the erection of his headstone.

Fortunately she ensured his service was recorded so he wasn't lost forever.

It's possible the headstone is eroded hence confusion of misreading 1942 for 1943

and congratulations too, to the work Dennis is involved in, and we'd welcome any more "lost" names so that descendants might trace the service and resting place of their forbears.

[Derit]

Thanks frev for an outstanding piece of work and when I get out of here (Kowanyama in the Gulf) where we were "blessed" with 1240 (31 inches) mm of rain over 5 days I will arrange to have that Date checked and advise you. I suspect you are correct and I will have to blame "fat fingers" and poor eyesight.Excuses, excuses!.

Mr Battle Sir, I am so pleased you said that regarding "more Sir" as I just happen to have two I was avoiding until I returned to my office in June. However, both I believe are British servicemen and one is stated to have been present at Omdurmam in 1888 which makes him a Kitchener man I guess.

As I dont wish to impose on you or the admirable frev, please LMK if either of you are interested.

Thanks and regards to you both.

Dennis

[KevinBattle]

Dennis, we're currently complaining about our record rain levels, but a further 31 inches in 5 days would see Britain totally under water!!

You must need a scuba to go outside!

Guess that gives you bragging rights about rainfall and shuts us whingeing Poms up (again).

Pity it didn't rain that much at the cricket grounds, we could say we lost the sodden Ashes without actually swearing!

Yes, we're Letting You Know to give us the names as and when you can. I don't think the Personal Message system operates until you have 5 posts on the Forum. and I'm sure we'd need the help of other expert Pals, rather than keep them to ourselves!

Hmm, a guy at Ondurman really is a Kitchener man, in WW1 terms that would be a volunteer for the New Armies responding to "The Country Needs You" as so many also did in Oz.

Stay dry!

[frev]

Dennis - wouldn't mind some of that rain down this way - even though the bushfires are under control at the moment, it's still as dry as ...........!

Always happy to help tell the stories of all veterans who have found their final rest in our country - so as Kevin said, keep putting up those names & details, and we'll keep nutting it out between us.

Cheers, Frev

[Derit]

Well frev I will send you some rain, it was 49 inches by the way...my maths always were a bit poor....as long as we can keep all the Mud Crabs, Barramundi etc that we were "forced" to eat whilst we waited it out. The local Aboriginal Population are very hospitable and great fishermen. Straight after the downpoor stopped they were out crabbing...(burp) and...wait for it...wait for it...you were correct about Gill...1942...first my maths and now my eyesight...sad.

Mr Battle, me?..me take a cheap shot at the English Cricket Team...never. I prefer to leave it to Mitchell Johnson to take well aimed shots..(grin). Shades of Jardine in SA I think.

Anyway on to the business at hand:

One possible British service man as promised. Note that I have done extremly limited research on this fellow.

I had initially believed I had two "Poms" but, it turns out that one, Pierce Blayney was an Aussie. His gain and my apologies.

The fellow in question is a Frank Brasil. His entry in the Julia Creek Cemetary records
( http://austcemindex.com/?id=726 ) reads:

His plaque (interesting list of conflicts) is also visible there.

Shows:
Photographed and transcribed by: Patterson-Kane, Peter & Karen Other Sources
Cemetery: Julia Creek QLD
Person Id: 7177699
Surname: Brasil
Given Names: Frank
Gender: M
Remarks: late AIF

Late AIF may be but unlikely to be Australian Forces member at Omdurman. No serial, no Unit makes it difficult to say.

He was employed at a Station called Garramul which was established in the mid to late 1880s by Sylvester Ulich Brown (snr).

Browne died suddenly some few hours after receiving news of his son Rupert being KIA in France. The youngest son Sylvester Ulich Brown (jnr) was a returned WW1 vet in 1957 and also President of the Julia Creek Branch of the RSL.

As Brasil was getting on in years it may well be that in an act of charity Browne employed or at least sheltered him in his later years and erected the plaque years after his death. No date of death is available.

Thats all I have.

On a closing note I was wondering if someone could alter the Private rank under my nik. Acting Unpaid Blank File would be more appropriate, Private is far too senior.

Regards

Dennis

[frev]

Thanks for the rain Dennis - though a little stingy (1.5mm overnight) - I guess I'd better not look a gift horse in the mouth!!

Would have loved some of that seafood to have come with it though - memories of freshly caught Barramundi in Darwin 15 years ago is all I'm left with......sigh!

Not having a lot of luck so far with Frank Brasil / Brazil - but it seems almost certain he died in 1953 - and is quite possible he was an Aussie, though having trouble matching details for certain.

Will leave you with my notes below (hope they're not too confusing) - and perhaps they'll lead yourself, or some other intrepid researcher, a little closer to discovering the truth......

Cheers, Frev

PS - wow! I'm impressed - as I type this it's starting to drizzle already.......

BRASIL / BRAZIL, Frank

The Longreach Leader (Qld), Sat 19 May 1945 (p.15):

PERSONAL

Mr Frank Brazil, who is spending a holiday in Julia Creek, is the guest of Mr and Mrs Downey. Mr Brazil is an old Digger of World War 1, and last week celebrated his 80^th birthday.

The Longreach Leader (Qld), Fri 5 Jul 1946:

Julia Creek

Mr Brazill is spending a few days in town as the guest of Mr and Mrs Downey.

Townsville Daily Bulletin (Qld), Fri 29 May 1953 (p.5):

JULIA CREEK

Mr Frank Brazil, a noted identity of Julia Creek and district for many years, is an inmate of the local hospital. At time of writing reports of him are satisfactory.

The Longreach Leader (Qld), Fri 19 Jun 1953 (p.19):

OBITUARIES

Mr Frank Brazil has passed away after a short time in hospital. He was 87, and was a very old resident of the district. He died on the 5^th June.

Died 5/6/1953 Julia Creek Hospital, age 87

Born c1866

The only Frank / Francis – Brasil / Brazil / Brazill registered in Qld BDMs b/w 1915 & 1957 is 1953:

Qld BDM: Francis Brazil d.29/5/1953 – son of John BRAZIL & Margaret COLLINS

Francis Brazil b.27/4/1867 Stuart, Sth Australia – son of John BRAZIL & Margaret COLLINS

Frank Brazill – Service Record: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=3115135

Born c1871 Stuart, SA

Stockman

Enl 27/8/1915 Brisbane, Qld (giving age as 44)

Pte 1766, 5^th LHR (12^th R) – embarked 21/10/15 – served Egypt

NOK: sister – Miss Catherine Brazill, Dept of Education, Adelaide, SA

States no previous service – & very unlikely to have served Gallipoli (would have arrived Egypt late Nov / early Dec)

Description includes: “scars from spear wound” (one on left shoulder blade, one on right knee) !!

RTA on the Madras 28/6/1919 – 3/8/1919

Letter 1916 Egypt: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3282559

Probable photos:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C00370/

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C00373/

Grave Plaque:

Frank Brasil…..soldier of fortune

Omdurman – Afghanistan – Gallipoli

Western Queensland

Erected by a friend – Ulick Browne (1957)

Battle of Omdurman, Sudan – Sept 1898 (near Khartoum)

[see letters in Newspapers from Aussies who fought in British Army]

S. Ulick Browne – sold Garomna Sheep Station in Dec 1953

Sylvester Ulick Browne was also in the 5^th LHR [& born in SA (1890), enl Qld] – although he was discharged with a knee injury a couple of weeks before Frank Brazill (Pte 1766) enlisted]

[KevinBattle]

Just a few thoughts for you both to consider...

Dennis said

Browne died suddenly some few hours after receiving news of his son Rupert being KIA in France. The youngest son Sylvester Ulich Brown (jnr) was a returned WW1 vet in 1957 and also President of the Julia Creek Branch of the RSL.

As Brasil was getting on in years it may well be that in an act of charity Browne employed or at least sheltered him in his later years and erected the plaque years after his death. No date of death is available.

Have you considered that Frank Brasil may have been with Mr Brown(e)'s son when killed, or have tried to bring him back from No Mans Land?

Obviously for Frank Brasil to have been an Omdurman veteran, he have a birth date of about 1880.

He'd have to be from one of the many regiments involved, the Imperial Camel Corps, 21st Lancers; 2nd Dragoons, Royal Horse Guards, Grenadier Guards or Seaforths; Cameron Highlanders, Warwickshire; Lincolnshire Regiments and possibly a few others.

Does the Service Record for Browns son survive? That may give a clue to where Brasil served.

Just an idea...

[Derit]

Hi frev and Kev (sounds like a show business duo)

Thanks for the work Sherlock (frev) you really do have a gift for it.

Now that we know Brazill was an Australian (well Crow Eater at least) I can add him to my list to research. In the interim I can tell Kevin this bit of info. Browne the Elders KIA son was Roderick Stawell Browne SERN 197. KIA 28-6-1915 at ANZAC and buried, to quote the dreaded Form B2009A:

"In the First Turkish trench, 70 yards south of Chahams Post and 1/4 mile SSE of ANZAC Cove at the top of Harris Ridge"

He is remenbered at the Lone Pine Memorial and also on Panel 4 of the AWM in Canberra.

Brazill attested on the 27-8-1915 well after Roderick was KIA. However both Ulick Brown and Brazill were in C Squadron 5 LH Regiment. Ulick Attesting on the 19-10 1914 and being invalided out with a "Knee Injury" in 1915. There was an overlap in their service in that unit and as an aside both were originally from South Australia and both disembarked from their returning Transports in 1915 and 1919 respectively in that state. No Brazills Sister (living in Adelaide SA) was not Ulicks wife....

Ulick spent the rest of the war writing letters to the Military as a mendicant, wanting a copy of his brothers Casualty (KIA) report, asking where his (Ulicks) medals were, requesting more details as to his brothers death so as to claim on his Life Assurance from AMP and assisting in his mothers insistence that a copy of the Casualty report be forwarded to his brothers bank so as to allow access to his account. He also badgered the Military regarding his brothers Pay. Fair enough I guess.

In 1925 he was a Board Member of the JUlia Creek Wool Scour Board when a strike over the usual was held. Browne sacked them all and brought in strike breakers...not a great move as the district virtually ignored him from then on. In 1963 he applied for Repatriation benefits and seems to have faded out of the "Social Scene".

Not surprising then that he and Brazill would become firm friends, leading PERHAPS to hyperbole or rhetoric on Brazills plaque.

He did the same on another WW1 vets grave Pierce Edmund Blaney SERN 147, who though undoubtedly a brave man did NOT defeat the German Army single handed. His inscription reads:

"He fought through France and in that glorious sweep to Germanic defeat after their breakthrough in March 1918"

Erected by an admiring friend and Employer

Wounded in the chest by a described "Minor Chest Wound" (in the eye of the recipient there is no minor) he spent most of his war shuttling between various Hospitals in the UK with little movement back to France.

The inscription on Brazills grave does not stand up to scrutiny. Only NSW was permitted by the British Govt. to send troops, other Colonies were rejected. He may of course enlisted in Sydney. His known WW1 record was undistinguished (no charge sheet, no confinement, no wounds,only the standard awards) and even with the resources that this team has access to his name or any person with his DOB or residence does not appear in any Australia pre WW1 record. In charity, he may have simply been lost by the paperwork. More likely, he could be a Ninteenth Century "Mitty". Its irrevelant now and I wont comment further. May he Rest in Peace as a returned WW1 Serviceman.

Incidentally, Ulicks Brother Denis John Brown was a Captain then Major in the AAMC in Egypt as Surgeon to the 5th LH Brigade, 13th LH Regiment, HQ section. He joined on 29th Feb 1915.

Thank you both for your help, it is very good of you both to give up your time. I will be away in the N.T. now for some weeks (months) and will visit when I can.

As Spock so often said "Live long and Prosper"

God Bless and stay safe.

Dennis

[KevinBattle]

Thanks for the awesome amount of intelligence you have amassed!

Enjoy the seafood and keep away from the crocs!

Best regards from the straight man of the Act, Kev

I'm learning a lot of Oz dialect, "wool scouring board" sounds like something Rolf might play!