T.M. shell to attack deep dug outs?

[marc coene]

Hello,

In an description of the raid on Manor Farm Dugout (Zillebeke, Ypres) by the 2nd Worcestershires on night of 19/20 June 1918 there is described that the deep dug out was bombed with TM shells and with Mills bombs.

Mills grenades we know, but somebody knows what TM shells are? Thanks for your info.

Kind regards,

Marc

[ss002d6252]

TM shells are

I would guess at Trench Mortar.

Craig

[centurion]

Stokes (Trench) Mortar shells rolled down the steps of the dug outs

[TonyE]

"TM"s are Trench Mortar shells. Stokes bombs were frequently uses as large grenades to throw down dug out entrances.

In this picture of Royal Fusiliers trench raiders the chap in the centre at the front has a Stokes bomb.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

I think that as well as the 3 in HE Stokes, 4 inch Stokes chemical rounds were also used. These would be more effective in complex multi chambered dug outs.When there was time to prepare such charges (3 and 4 inch) might be wooden clad to make them roll to the bottom before going off rather than sticking on the stairs partway down - some German dugouts were very deep.

[marc coene]

Hello, all of you.

Thanks for the reply, about the TM shell all is completely clear.

Was the fume or gas (produced by explosion) produced by such a Stoke grenade suffocating? Because indeed there were Germans in the deep British dugout (11,7 meter deeep) but they will not have waited down the steps of the dugout. In the report of the raid there is marked: "The dugout was occupied. The members were not ascertained". So this will mean that it was not clear if (some of) the Germans in the dugout will have survived? It will not have been the goal or not ordered to enter the dugout as also in a raid there is not much time.

Ps The special in this case was that Manor Farm dugout was first used by 154 SB. When it later was taken by the Germans some members of 154 SB took part as guiders with the 2nd Worcesters in the raid onto their earlier own dugout. Especially because they knew very good the surface and surrounding of the place as being positioned there earlier for about 4 months.

Thanks, regards, Marc

[centurion]

Hello, all of you.Thanks for the reply, about the TM shell all is completely clear.Was the fume or gas (produced by explosion) produced by such a Stoke grenade suffocating? Because indeed there were Germans in the deep British dugout (11,7 meter deeep) but they will not have waited down the steps of the dugout. In the report of the raid there is marked: "The dugout was occupied. The members were not ascertained". So this will mean that it was not clear if (some of) the Germans in the dugout will have survived? It will not have been the goal or not ordered to enter the dugout as also in a raid there is not much time.Ps The special in this case was that Manor Farm dugout was first used by 154 SB. When it later was taken by the Germans some members of 154 SB took part as guiders with the 2nd Worcesters in the raid onto their earlier own dugout. Especially because they knew very good the surface and surrounding of the place as being positioned there earlier for about 4 months.Thanks, regards, Marc

See my post Chemical means gas or smoke

[Dave1418]

I feel that the Stokes round would more likely be used to cause death, injury or damage to the bunker or its occupants, its highly unlikely that they would have used it in a chemical (gas) capacity whilst trench raiding due to its effects. Trench raiding parties are not usually seen carrying PH hoods or SBR's.

Excellent photo of the Royal Fusiliers wearing shorts which might assist in dating of it, can anyone identify the SLP used by the chap in the centre of the back row.

regards

Dave

[centurion]

I feel that the Stokes round would more likely be used to cause death, injury or damage to the bunker or its occupants, its highly unlikely that they would have used it in a chemical (gas) capacity whilst trench raiding due to its effects. Trench raiding parties are not usually seen carrying PH hoods or SBR's.

Excellent photo of the Royal Fusiliers wearing shorts which might assist in dating of it, can anyone identify the SLP used by the chap in the centre of the back row.

regards

Dave

If the thing goes off down a deep bunker they wouldn't have to the gas would stay in the bunker and they would probably use a smoke round anyway.

[TonyE]

.........can anyone identify the SLP used by the chap in the centre of the back row.

regards

Dave

Yes, it is a Colt Model 1908 in .380ACP calibre. All the others are carrying Spanish Old pattern .455 inch pistols.

Regards

TonyE

[Dave1418]

If the thing goes off down a deep bunker they wouldn't have to the gas would stay in the bunker and they would probably use a smoke round anyway.

Hi Centurion,

The use of a Stokes smoke round during a trench raid is most unlikely, its strategic use in smoking out the occupants would perhaps be too time consuming for it to be of effective tactical use unless you could seal the other bunker entrances/exits. During trench raiding it would be far more effective to use a Stoke bomb in trying to collapse the bunker or stairway thus stopping any support arriving in the trench whilst raid was taking place.

Dave

Many thanks Tony E for the identification of the SLP

Dave

[centurion]

Hi Centurion,

The use of a Stokes smoke round during a trench raid is most unlikely, its strategic use in smoking out the occupants would perhaps be too time consuming for it to be of effective tactical use unless you could seal the other bunker entrances/exits. During trench raiding it would be far more effective to use a Stoke bomb in trying to collapse the bunker or stairway thus stopping any support arriving in the trench whilst raid was taking place.

Dave

Many thanks Tony E for the identification of the SLP

Dave

You destroy your own argument - if there were other exits (as there often were), then collapsing one stairway would be pretty ineffectual. A smoke round produced large amounts of white choking smoke very quickly which would fill the bunker making it both difficult to stay in the complex and to find your way out

[Dave1418]

I have to disagree, why use smoke when an explosive round is much more effective. Collapsing the dug out entrance where you are assaulting will stop the enemy emerging on you whilst in middle of the raid. The round would not only collapse the stairway you placed it in but the resulting over pressure and Mac reflection would combine to cause large amounts of damage, death and injury in areas much further away from the initial detonation as the pressure tries to escape.

[centurion]

I have to disagree, why use smoke when an explosive round is much more effective. Collapsing the dug out entrance where you are assaulting will stop the enemy emerging on you whilst in middle of the raid. The round would not only collapse the stairway you placed it in but the resulting over pressure and Mac reflection would combine to cause large amounts of damage, death and injury in areas much further away from the initial detonation as the pressure tries to escape.

Very simply because the German engineers had already thought about such things when building the deep dug out complexes so that there were blast walls etc in place and alternative exits - they weren't stupid

[jhill]

Here is a snip form the Diary of the 2nd Canadian Mounmted Rifles at the Somme in September 1916. It describes the use of Stokes bombs against German dugouts. It is very definite that they were used to crump in the entrances, thus emtombing the occupants.

I note that at this time Stokes guns were still under battalion control, so the infantry did not have to "filch" bombs from the artillery. Also, I doubt smoke rounds were readily available to the infantry going forward. Speciallized gear was not easy to get at the front at this time.

[centurion]

Doesn't mean that they weren't used later. One should note that the French had had a similar problem and used portable flamethrowers for much the same effect.

[marc coene]

Doesn't mean that they weren't used later. One should note that the French had had a similar problem and used portable flamethrowers for much the same effect.

Hello,

I don't know what will have been used to bomb the dugout of Manor Farm (gas or not), I only find strange that the diary of the 2nd Worcester says the dugout was occupied but it also says the members of the dugout were not ascertained.

So the matter stays open. As I said in the case of Manor Farm dugout it was a British dugout occupied by the Germans. The Germans were of 457th German Regiment. Sombebody knows if there would be to find diarees of them. Then we could perhaps reveal the truth? If there were deadth gassed people in the dugout that might be marked in their diarees of the night of 19-20/06/1918?

Thanks if somebody can help, Marc

[RobL]

I thought 3 inch stokes mortars were always under infantry control, not artillery?

[Dave1418]

Very simply because the German engineers had already thought about such things when building the deep dug out complexes so that there were blast walls etc in place and alternative exits - they weren't stupid

Hi, you are right the Germans were not stupid. Blast walls stop the actual fragmentation of the blast etc on smaller charges like a Mills bomb. That is why they changed on some occasions to using a Stoke round, the over pressure and Mac reflection of the explosion itself will travel around blast wall and any internal obstructions such as doorways etc to find its escape. When detonated in the open the blast will dissipate from the point of detonation in 360 degrees, once you confine, tamp the charge or make the blast directional then the pressure wave has much more impetus and a much more destructive effect.