WW1LLIAM Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 ... I came across this old gun(?) It has no firing mechanism that I can see and the inner barrel is threaded for the first two inches. It's 46" in length. It is marked 1915 E R Watts & Son London it also has some 'crows' foot marks, similar to the BSA 3 rifles symbol. Can anyone shed any light on this object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 ... I came across this old gun(?) It has no firing mechanism that I can see and the inner barrel is threaded for the first two inches. It's 46" in length. It is marked 1915 E R Watts & Son London it also has some 'crows' foot marks, similar to the BSA 3 rifles symbol. Can anyone shed any light on this object. gun.jpg gun marking.JPG Butt.jpg what you have is a fencing musket, used for training soldiers with bayonets. http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Fencing_musket.htm made by E R Watts & Son London in 1915, the two broad arrow marks pointing together is the obsolete/sold out of service mark. warm regards, Haydn Edit: Very very interesting item and not commonly seen! Where may I ask was it found? Wish I were that lucky ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 Googling ER Watts brings up a lot of info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 Missing the spring loaded plunger part and as such an auction estimate on a similar Greener one is £20 - £50 you will not be able to retire on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 I had noticed the missing plunger which is unfortunate, but I'd happily have one as a curiosity. A nice interesting find for a collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WW1LLIAM Posted 31 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2014 what you have is a fencing musket, used for training soldiers with bayonets. http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Fencing_musket.htm made by E R Watts & Son London in 1915, the two broad arrow marks pointing together is the obsolete/sold out of service mark. warm regards, Haydn Edit: Very very interesting item and not commonly seen! Where may I ask was it found? Wish I were that lucky ha ha. Thank you for the prompt response in identifying this object, I am near Portsmouth and rescued it from the skip. Because of your identification I have found the following information on the internet... During October and November 1914, the War Office placed orders with five different firms for Fencing Muskets. The predominance of the orders went to W.W. Greener, Webley & Scott and C.G. Bonehill. The other two firms to receive orders were G Beaston & Sons Ltd, who defaulted on the contract without making any and E. R. Watts & Sons who were given a contract for 800 units at 50 a week on 10/11/14, they must have found it slow going as by 26/06/15 they had produced 632 and were 168 in arrears. It is quite pitted, but according to the above it's the rarest of the fencing muskets. I have no interest in this object other than as a fascinating glimpse into the past, so am open to offers if anyone would like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 31 January , 2014 Share Posted 31 January , 2014 Thank you for the prompt response in identifying this object, I am near Portsmouth and rescued it from the skip. Because of your identification I have found the following information on the internet... During October and November 1914, the War Office placed orders with five different firms for Fencing Muskets. The predominance of the orders went to W.W. Greener, Webley & Scott and C.G. Bonehill. The other two firms to receive orders were G Beaston & Sons Ltd, who defaulted on the contract without making any and E. R. Watts & Sons who were given a contract for 800 units at 50 a week on 10/11/14, they must have found it slow going as by 26/06/15 they had produced 632 and were 168 in arrears. It is quite pitted, but according to the above it's the rarest of the fencing muskets. I have no interest in this object other than as a fascinating glimpse into the past, so am open to offers if anyone would like it. Hello, I'll send you a private message! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 31 January , 2014 Share Posted 31 January , 2014 I wouldn't let it go for less than £200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 31 January , 2014 Share Posted 31 January , 2014 Should find the fencing muskets interesting due the connection between rifles/ bayonets & as a training tool but have passed over many of them. Maybe its because they look like a childs toy but to be honest, they do nothing for me either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 They were still in use in the early 1950's for the sport of bayonet fencing. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WW1LLIAM Posted 1 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2014 I've had so much response from this item that I am going to look into it further. I live fairly close to the Fort Nelson Armouries Museum in Portsmouth, so will see what they have to say on the musket, before deciding its fate. Thank you to all contributors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Fort Nelson may be a long shot as it is an artillery museum. No harm in asking though as they May have useful contacts. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanD Posted 2 February , 2014 Share Posted 2 February , 2014 Thank you for the prompt response in identifying this object, I am near Portsmouth and rescued it from the skip. Because of your identification I have found the following information on the internet... During October and November 1914, the War Office placed orders with five different firms for Fencing Muskets. The predominance of the orders went to W.W. Greener, Webley & Scott and C.G. Bonehill. The other two firms to receive orders were G Beaston & Sons Ltd, who defaulted on the contract without making any and E. R. Watts & Sons who were given a contract for 800 units at 50 a week on 10/11/14, they must have found it slow going as by 26/06/15 they had produced 632 and were 168 in arrears. It is quite pitted, but according to the above it's the rarest of the fencing muskets. I have no interest in this object other than as a fascinating glimpse into the past, so am open to offers if anyone would like it. Glad you found my old post of a few years ago. I cannot remember which forum I posted it on. Regards AlanD Sydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WW1LLIAM Posted 3 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2014 Glad you found my old post of a few years ago. I cannot remember which forum I posted it on. Regards AlanD Sydney Thanks AlanD, it was the most informative thing I found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfrik-the-wanderer Posted 7 May , 2014 Share Posted 7 May , 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01sjxm2 if you go to 46 seconds in you see my great great uncles, and great great granddads regiment using these, 10th Bn Lincolshire regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 7 May , 2014 Share Posted 7 May , 2014 Fort Nelson may be a long shot as it is an artillery museum. No harm in asking though as they May have useful contacts. Nigel Quite right. Nelson is the artillery section of the Royal Armouries. The Small Arms department is in Leeds. Fencing muskets, especially incomplete/broken ones like then OP's are not that uncommon and do not fetch a lot. I remember an ACF unit in Acton had loads of them which they wrecked, as per the OP's, in the 1970s (IIRC) to use in place of their No.4s which had been taken away due to the PIRA terrorist threat. Complete ones aren't that sought after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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