kenny3883 Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 Hi all I’ve hunted for the answer to my very simple question in these forums, on The Long Long Trail and elsewhere online but I can’t find it! I know that a soldier who was awarded the 1914 (Mons) Star would have the name of his unit engraved on the reverse and that this would have been the unit with which he was serving when he ‘qualified’ for it in 1914. But, if he had changed units prior to when this medal was authorised in April 1917, which unit would be shown on his War Medal Index Card – the unit that he was in when he qualified for the medal in 1914 or the one he was serving in when the medal was authorised in April 1917? I suspect it’s the former, but if someone could give me a definitive answer it would be much appreciated. Many thanks. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 As far as I'm aware the medal showed the original unit he was with in 1914 (e.g when he qualified for it) but was listed on the medal roll of the unit he was currently serving with - i.e the current unit compiled the list for administrative ease. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKAIF Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 Yes, I'd confirm the response above. (Also, before anyone else mentions it, the name etc was stamped rather than engraved.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 25 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2014 Craig and UKAIF Thank you both very much for your responses. From what you say, would it therefore be safe for me to assume that, if my grandfather won his 1914 Star whilst with the 1st RWK Regt in France and that this is also the unit on his War Medal Index Card, then in all probability he served with the 1st RWK between Aug 1914 and April 1917 when the medal was authorised? The reason I ask is simply because he transferred to the Labour Corps in June 1917, but his Discharge Certificate from the Labour Corps (31/3/20) states that, although he originally enlisted with the RWKR, he "Also previously served in Suffolk Regt". If you are right, which I'm sure you are, then I don't really see how or when he could have served with the Suffolks! Any ideas? Thanks again and yes, I did know the medals were stamped rather than engraved - just a slight lack of attention to detail on my part! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 would it therefore be safe for me to assume that, if my grandfather won his 1914 Star whilst with the 1st RWK Regt in France and that this is also the unit on his War Medal Index Card, then in all probability he served with the 1st RWK between Aug 1914 and April 1917 when the medal was authorised? It's not a 100% safe assumption. The Medal Card only shows unit he served overseas with - its possible he served with Suffolks before the RWK but it's also possible it was after the RWK and before the Labour Corps if he had been sent back to the UK at some point (wounded or otherwise unfit for front-line service). What was his name and service number ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 How very strange Ken. I am a 73 year old lady researching my late fathers history. Dad was in the SUFFOLK BANTAMS - he was under five feet tall. He suffered the most horrific injuries almost on entering the war and after treatment was transferred to the RED CROSS. MERRYDOWN CORNER ? Near GUILDFORD before being transferred to SHOREHAM BY SEA for full rehabilitation. PTE THOMAS WILLIAM KING SUFFOLK BANTAMS 22100 and the LABOUR CORPS number which is not to hand. Time is not on my side so Ken anything that you can share with me would be so valuable. Thank you Barbara Further to the above Born LONDON 25/3/1894 dies OXFORD 20/05/1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 25 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2014 It's not a 100% safe assumption. The Medal Card only shows unit he served overseas with - its possible he served with Suffolks before the RWK but it's also possible it was after the RWK and before the Labour Corps if he had been sent back to the UK at some point (wounded or otherwise unfit for front-line service). What was his name and service number ? Craig Hi Craig Name and service nos. were: Pte Arthur Dryden, 7385 Royal West Kent Regt and 237637 Labour Corps He originally enlisted in the RWK in 1903 aged 18 and I have his Army "Small Book" and WW1 Pay Book etc which confirm he was with the RWK from 1903-early 1915. So, any service with the Suffolk Regt would have to be between the RWK and the Labour Corps (i.e. early 1915 - June 1917). He was indeed sent home wounded at the end of October 1914 (a piece of shrapnel in his lung which was never removed). Given he was awarded one RED chevron only (no blue ones) he almost certainly never returned to front line service overseas (or, if he did, it could only have been for a limited period). I had therefore thought any service with the Suffolks would have been between early 1915 and June 1917 but, from your previous answer on this topic, I thought he would still have been with the RWK in April 1917 (as he is on the RWK medal roll for the 1914 Star). If so, wouldn't any service in the Suffolk's have been limited to between April 1917 and June 1917? Or have I just misunderstood (I have been known to!) Best regards. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 25 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2014 How very strange Ken. I am a 73 year old lady researching my late fathers history. Dad was in the SUFFOLK BANTAMS - he was under five feet tall. He suffered the most horrific injuries almost on entering the war and after treatment was transferred to the RED CROSS. MERRYDOWN CORNER ? Near GUILDFORD before being transferred to SHOREHAM BY SEA for full rehabilitation. PTE THOMAS WILLIAM KING SUFFOLK BANTAMS 22100 and the LABOUR CORPS number which is not to hand. Time is not on my side so Ken anything that you can share with me would be so valuable. Thank you Barbara Further to the above Born LONDON 25/3/1894 dies OXFORD 20/05/1975 Hi Barbara I'm very sorry but I'm not really able to help you, although I'm sure there are many on this wonderful website who can. There seems to be very little info on the Labour Corps but these links may be of help to you: http://www.1914-1918.net/labour.htm http://www.labourcorps.co.uk/ As regards the "Suffolk Regiment", all I have is a rather enigmatic reference on my grandfather's discharge certificate stating that, at some unknown time and for some unknown duration he served with the Suffolks. I think your best chance of getting some help with your researches is to ask the experts on here by starting your own 'Topic'. I'm sure help will be forthcoming. Regards. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 I thought he would still have been with the RWK in April 1917 (as he is on the RWK medal roll for the 1914 Star). This could be a case where the administrative system breaks down and the Suffolks should have dealt with the medal (but didn't) or it may be a case that he was still with the RWK before he was formerly transferred to the Suffolks (a man would be sent wherever he was needed). Then, once with the Suffolks, he was found to still be unfit and passed to the Labour Corps. EDIT: His Medal Index Card shows the Labour Corps so we know her served overseas with them so I would postulate that he was wounded, sent home with the RWK then transferred to the Suffolks and then quite possibly back as far as France with them before he was passed to the Labour Corps. In any case though he was in France with the Labour Corps. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 25 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2014 His Medal Index Card shows the Labour Corps so we know her served overseas with them so I would postulate that he was wounded, sent home with the RWK then transferred to the Suffolks and then quite possibly back as far as France with them before he was passed to the Labour Corps. In any case though he was in France with the Labour Corps. Craig Thanks again for your help. I hadn't realised that he must also have been in France with the Labour Corps. This would make sense as I have a photo of him in uniform, which I can date to after he joined the LC, and he has a 'Signaller' badge on his lower left sleeve which seems to be absent from an earlier photo when he was with the RWK. Returning to France as a 'behind the lines' signaller in the Labour Corps makes sense (to me at least). Just to be sure I've understood all this properly, would you be able to confirm the following is a correct interpretation? If the only unit in which he had served overseas had been the RWK, then he would have appeared only in RWK medal rolls for all of his 3 medals (1914 Star, BWM and Victory medal). But because he appears in medal rolls for both the RWK and Labour Corps, he must have served overseas with both. He may or may not have also served overseas with the Suffolks. However, any service overseas after 1/1/1915 must have totalled less than 12 months, otherwise he would have been awarded a blue chevron as well as his red chevron. Sorry to keep answering your very helpful answers with yet more questions! Hope you don't mind. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 25 January , 2014 Admin Share Posted 25 January , 2014 A fundamental flaw in your timeline is that the 1914 Star was not issued in April 1917 but authorised under Special Army Order dated November 1917 and arrangements for issue were promulgated in the Times (and no doubt elsewhere) dated Monday 26th November 1917 i.e. 'officers i/c records will prepare nominal rolls, in duplicate of soldiers entitled to the Star." The announcement from the War Office was made on September 10th 1917. The Labour Corps was formed in April 1917, as you have a record that shows he was with the RWK to early 1915 it's possible he transferred to a Home Garrison Bn of the Suffolks (and as noted above this wouldn't need to be shown on the mic if he remained at home) he then transferred to the Labour Corps on its formation. We know nothing of his service with the Suffolks but could have been in one of the companies that was absorbed into the Labour Corps during the year http://www.labourcorps.co.uk/Pages/The%20Labour%20Corps.html. I believe Ivor Lee's (the owner of the website) book 'No Labour No Battle' has a guide to the numbering which would give an indication when he joined them. At some point he transferred to the Labour Corps, whether or not he served overseas with them is not known but the Corps would need to be listed on the mic as they would have administrative responsibility for issuing his medals. All his medals would be named to the RWK, i.e. the first Regiment he was serving in when he qualified for the medals. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 He may or may not have also served overseas with the Suffolks. If he had service overseas with the Suffolks then it should have been on his MIC - there are cases however where a man made it to a base depot in France and was the re-assigned but for some reason the unit he arrived in France with isn't shown on his MIC so he may have made it to France with the Suffolks but it would have been for a very short period only. However, any service overseas after 1/1/1915 must have totalled less than 12 months, otherwise he would have been awarded a blue chevron as well as his red chevron. I would agree - although you can never rule out some odd clause in the regs that stopped a second one even with more than 12 months service. But because he appears in medal rolls for both the RWK and Labour Corps, he must have served overseas with both. I would agree, as per MIC. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 25 January , 2014 Admin Share Posted 25 January , 2014 I'm sorry I disagree the fact he is on the rolls for the Labour Corps does not mean he 'must' have served overseas with them. He may have done so but the LC is listed on the card because as his last unit they had administrative responsibility for issuing his BWM and VM and therefore he is on their Roll. In the absence of a service record it's impossible to say with absolute certainty. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 I would agree, as per MIC. With all due respect having Labour Corps on the Medal Index Card isn't a certainty that he served overseas with them, Ken has it right when he said "At some point he transferred to the Labour Corps, whether or not he served overseas with them is not known but the Corps would need to be listed on the mic as they would have administrative responsibility for issuing his medals. All his medals would be named to the RWK, i.e. the first Regiment he was serving in when he qualified for the medals." Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 I believe Ivor Lee's (the owner of the website) book 'No Labour No Battle' has a guide to the numbering which would give an indication when he joined them.The book does have a guide to numbering and indicates an issue between June and September 1917. Steve edit: I don't know how the Labour Corps issued their numbers but a quick glance at a few records suggests 2376xx numbers were issued at the beginning of July 1917. All the following were Labour Corps' Eastern Command..... 237628 : 3rd July 1917 237635 : 3rd July 1917 237670 : 3rd July 1917 237698 : 5th July 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 25 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2014 Ken, Craig and Steve Thank you all so much for your help on this. I think you have confirmed what I originally thought - that his service with the Suffolks had to have been between early 1915 and his transfer to the Labour Corps. According to his MIC, he transferred to the Labour Corps on 16 June 1917, which Steve has confirmed accords with the numbering guide in Ivor's book. Ken - yes, a fundamental flaw in my timeline indeed! I got the date from this website: http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1-campaign-medals.htm, which states that the 1914 Star was "was authorized by King George V in April 1917". But despite all your help, I'm still a little confused about two things (sorry!)... 1. If the 1914 Star was not authorised until November 1917 (when he was with the Labour Corps) why was it that the RWK still had administrative responsibility for issuing that particular medal while the LC had responsibility for issuing his BWM and VM, even though all 3 would be named to the RWK? Is the answer as simple as he won the 1914 Star in 1914 while with the RWK, whilst the other two covered the entire period 1914-18 so were issued by the last unit he was with in 1918? 2. Finally, am I safe to assume that, as the Suffolks are not listed on his MIC, all his service with them must have been at home? If someone can answer those two for me please, then I think I have all the info I need on this! Many thanks again to all of you. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 25 January , 2014 Share Posted 25 January , 2014 1. If the 1914 Star was not authorised until November 1917 (when he was with the Labour Corps) why was it that the RWK still had administrative responsibility for issuing that particular medal while the LC had responsibility for issuing his BWM and VM, even though all 3 would be named to the RWK? Is the answer as simple as he won the 1914 Star in 1914 while with the RWK, whilst the other two covered the entire period 1914-18 so were issued by the last unit he was with in 1918? 2. Finally, am I safe to assume that, as the Suffolks are not listed on his MIC, all his service with them must have been at home? 1. I don't know the definite answer but there's something in what you say. Unless I've done something daft on the National Archives catalogue (which could be a distinct possibility) there are NO "1914 Star" Rolls administered by the Labour Corps (nor the Royal Defence Corps as an aside), as a unit they seem to have started administering medal issues with the 1914-15 Star. 2. That would in my opinion be a reasonable assumption to make but, as ever, there are always exceptions to any rule. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 26 January , 2014 Share Posted 26 January , 2014 The date of entry on his MIC August 15, 1914 matches the date the 1st RWK arrived in France. It does not match the dates for either Suffolk Regt. Regular battalions. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 26 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2014 1. I don't know the definite answer but there's something in what you say. Unless I've done something daft on the National Archives catalogue (which could be a distinct possibility) there are NO "1914 Star" Rolls administered by the Labour Corps (nor the Royal Defence Corps as an aside), as a unit they seem to have started administering medal issues with the 1914-15 Star. 2. That would in my opinion be a reasonable assumption to make but, as ever, there are always exceptions to any rule. Steve Thanks Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 26 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2014 The date of entry on his MIC August 15, 1914 matches the date the 1st RWK arrived in France. It does not match the dates for either Suffolk Regt. Regular battalions. Michael Hi Michael Thanks for the response. I did know that he arrived at Le Havre, France with the 1st RWK on 15th August 1914 and that he was wounded at Neuve Chapelle (Battle of La Bassee) around 26-28 October 1914, returned to England for medical treatment and was still with the RWK in early 1915. I also know he transferred to the Labour Corps in June 1917. It's the bit in between that's the issue (!) as his Discharge Certificate in 1920 says that he "Also previously served with the Suffolk Regt". I think kenf48 (post 11 above) has probably got it right when he says: "as you have a record that shows he was with the RWK to early 1915 it's possible he transferred to a Home Garrison Bn of the Suffolks (and as noted above this wouldn't need to be shown on the mic if he remained at home) he then transferred to the Labour Corps on its formation." Thanks again. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 26 January , 2014 Admin Share Posted 26 January , 2014 1. If the 1914 Star was not authorised until November 1917 (when he was with the Labour Corps) why was it that the RWK still had administrative responsibility for issuing that particular medal while the LC had responsibility for issuing his BWM and VM, even though all 3 would be named to the RWK? Is the answer as simple as he won the 1914 Star in 1914 while with the RWK, whilst the other two covered the entire period 1914-18 so were issued by the last unit he was with in 1918? Ken I've little to add to Steve's observations however I've attached the (initial) instructions issued on 26th November 1917 and reported in the Times newspaper at this time no mention was made of the 'Clasp and Roses'. As Steve notes it would be difficult for any unit formed after November 1914 to include soldiers on their Roll as specific directions as to how soldiers who were subject to transfer are recorded. As the instruction is aimed at officers i/c records I suspect, but don't know for certain the Regimental Rolls were compiled in the local Records Office (e.g. Preston, I don't know where the RWK records were held) and then submitted as directed. When you see the Roll, if the instructions have been followed his name should be in red ink! As an aside the following day there was a report the issue of the ribbon was to be delayed because of the difficulty obtaining the distinctive 'tricolored water silk ribbon' and on December 10th a further report that due to the scarcity of labour it would be some months before the medal was issued. There were still problems with the ribbon but this was to be issued first to those serving overseas. They were to be received 'by presentation' rather than the BWM and VM which were simply sent out in the post. For example members of the London Special Constabulary who qualified for the medal receive their medal at a parade in Regents Park on May 26th 1918. It's worth considering the majority of the recipients were Regular Army soldiers and reservists and the controversy over the (mis)naming of the media in popular imagination as 'The Mons Star' began almost immediately as it was feared the action at first ypres would be overlooked. Incidentally, if he is wearing the ribbon in the 'signaller' picture it could help date it. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 26 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2014 Ken Many thanks for your post and for the extract from The Times. It's all becoming clear to me now (I think!) As the article in The Times says: "The rank and regimental number entered on the rolls will be that held by an individual on the date of disembarcation [sic]." That information would only have been held by the officer i/c Records of the unit he was with when he disembarked, so it was they who would have had to prepare the "nominal rolls... of soldiers entitled to the Star". There was no way the Labour Corps (which he joined in June 1917) would have had access to that information. Correct? So I think that answers the question I posed in my original post, and which I mistakenly referred to as 'simple' at the time! Should have known better! Unfortunately, no he is not wearing any ribbons in the 'signaller' picture. In fact, that particular picture is one of two remaining 'problems' I still have regarding my grandfather's army service. In short, he's wearing 3 Good Conduct stripes (i.e. for 12 years' service) but his Discharge Certificate only credits him with 11 years 228 days! But I think I'll start a separate 'Topic' on that one after I've had a go at trying to narrow down the date of the photo more accurately. Finally, yes I did know that referring to the 1914 Star as the Mons Star is incorrect. I only referred to it in this way to try and avoid any confusion with the 1914-15 Star. Many thanks again. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 There was no way the Labour Corps (which he joined in June 1917) would have had access to that information. Correct? The Labour Corps should have access to it as it would be recorded in his service records which moved around with him. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny3883 Posted 30 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2014 The Labour Corps should have access to it as it would be recorded in his service records which moved around with him. Craig Craig Many thanks for clarifying. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now